Thread: 10 Things Every American Should Know About WWII

Originally Posted by Jimmors

Thats a pretty awesome hat he's wearing.

I'm so slow. I was looking at the one in his hand

Originally Posted by TheBaschnagelnator

But that's the thing. At the end of the day, the Catholic Church didn't do much to separate themselves from him or his group, despite what they have said in the following years to justify their outward stance. And had Hitler succeeded, I'm sure they would have had little problem ruling the world from the top of the mountain along side him and Germany. I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, but everything about Rome reveals that they had the desire to side with the winning power, WW2/post-WW2.























“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so” [Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]

"Hitler was also ready to discuss with the Bishop his views on the Jewish question: "As for the Jews, I am just carrying on with the same policy which the Catholic church has adopted for fifteen hundred years, when it has regarded the Jews as dangerous and pushed them into ghettos etc., because it knew what the Jews were like. I don't put race above religion, but I do see the danger in the representatives of this race for Church and State, and perhaps I am doing Christianity a great service." -"The Nazi Persecution of the Churches" by J.S. Conway, Pgs. 25, 26 & 162.

Nothing happens in a vacuum...

First, during per-war build-up period, the Church's biggest fear and enemy was not Nazism/Fascism (which did NOT yet have the stigma of the Holocaust attached to it), but Communism....the spread of Communism into Europe would, in all likelihood, have decimated the Church...The Communists made very clear what they thought of the Church and religion in general....

As righteous as the Church may claim to be, they are not immune the timeless adage that the enemy of my enemy is my friend....

Second, during the war, the Church to didn't want Rome destroyed or the Vatican City bombed...by the Germans....very pragmatic, but very understandable...for a long time, Vatican City has only existed because of the good will of the controlling Western Powers...IF Germany was potentially going to be that controlling Western Power (and until 1944 it was certainly looking that way) the Church was certain not going to do anything to piss them off...quite frankly, it's not their mandate to care about stately matters so long as the Church survives....

I know what the Church did and understand why they did it....I would be curious to know what you think the Church should have done and what the likely outcome would have been?

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Nothing happens in a vacuum...

First, during per-war build-up period, the Church's biggest fear and enemy was not Nazism/Fascism (which did NOT yet have the stigma of the Holocaust attached to it), but Communism....the spread of Communism into Europe would, in all likelihood, have decimated the Church...The Communists made very clear what they thought of the Church and religion in general....

As righteous as the Church may claim to be, they are not immune the timeless adage that the enemy of my enemy is my friend....

Second, during the war, the Church to didn't want Rome destroyed or the Vatican City bombed...by the Germans....very pragmatic, but very understandable...for a long time, Vatican City has only existed because of the good will of the controlling Western Powers...IF Germany was potentially going to be that controlling Western Power (and until 1944 it was certainly looking that way) the Church was certain not going to do anything to piss them off...quite frankly, it's not their mandate to care about stately matters so long as the Church survives....

I know what the Church did and understand why they did it....I would be curious to know what you think the Church should have done and what the likely outcome would have been?

Well, it kind of shifts the topic so to speak, but as an institution that claims to be the church of Christ, they failed to follow in His footsteps. Let's say they did form their alliance with Germany out of fear, rather than desire. Even in the face of death, the NT confirms that Christ would not compromise with evil, even with the added incentive of power and wealth. He turned it all away (Matt 4) and accepted His mission. If Rome was inspired to be the body of His head, then it should have kept the faith and side with good. It proved they feared man more than God, and valued temporal power over heavenly treasure...not trusting the promise that the "gates of hell would not prevail" against Christ's church (collection of sincere Christians).

On a side note, this is a very interesting study regarding the papacy; it contains a plethora of information, but if you carefully read some of it, you'll begin to understand that Rome plays a critical part in history.

Characteristics of Antichrist revealed

Originally Posted by TheBaschnagelnator

Well, it kind of shifts the topic so to speak, but as an institution that claims to be the church of Christ, they failed to follow in His footsteps. Let's say they did form their alliance with Germany out of fear, rather than desire. Even in the face of death, the NT confirms that Christ would not compromise with evil, even with the added incentive of power and wealth. He turned it all away (Matt 4) and accepted His mission. If Rome was inspired to be the body of His head, then it should have kept the faith and side with good. It proved they feared man more than God, and valued temporal power over heavenly treasure...not trusting the promise that the "gates of hell would not prevail" against Christ's church (collection of sincere Christians).

On a side note, this is a very interesting study regarding the papacy; it contains a plethora of information, but if you carefully read some of it, you'll begin to understand that Rome plays a critical part in history.

Characteristics of Antichrist revealed

First, I said nothing about an alliance...are you claiming some kind of official Papal-German alliance?

Second, you are making the same mistake many people do...namely, this idea that anyone who follows Christ, who was perfect (via their teachings), must in turn be perfect themselves...and anything less than Christ-like perfection is condemned as an unforgivable, malicious, and in your case, evil, failing...Christ was perfect; humans are weak...even humans that wear funny hats...

Once again, I think you are confusing our understanding of Hitler with contemporary views at the time (prewar especially)...of course, today we view Hitler as the epitome of evil...however, until that evil was fully exposed after the war (or during very latter stages), Hitler was just another aggressive, militaristic asshole...and the Church has seen its share of aggressive, militaristic assholes come and go...there was no reason for the Church not to think Hitler would simply come and go as well...in other words, there was no reason to treat Hitler any differently (excommunication, grand gestures and whatnot) from all the other assholes that came before him...

As for that whole antichrist stuff you posted, I think I'll just say nothing...

Originally Posted by Wolfman

First, I said nothing about an alliance...are you claiming some kind of official Papal-German alliance?

Second, you are making the same mistake many people do...namely, this idea that anyone who follows Christ, who was perfect (via their teachings), must in turn be perfect themselves...and anything less than Christ-like perfection is condemned as an unforgivable, malicious, and in your case, evil, failing...Christ was perfect; humans are weak...even humans that wear funny hats...

Once again, I think you are confusing our understanding of Hitler with contemporary views at the time (prewar especially)...of course, today we view Hitler as the epitome of evil...however, until that evil was fully exposed after the war (or during very latter stages), Hitler was just another aggressive, militaristic asshole...and the Church has seen its share of aggressive, militaristic assholes come and go...there was no reason for the Church not to think Hitler would simply come and go as well...in other words, there was no reason to treat Hitler any differently (excommunication, grand gestures and whatnot) from all the other assholes that came before him...

As for that whole antichrist stuff you posted, I think I'll just say nothing...

I mean, technically... can we say that we can become flawless and never show a character deficit ever again? No. I'm not saying that at all. That's not the perfection mankind is to strive for, neither is it possible given our nature. But yet, we're still called to be "perfect." So, what does this mean?: Matt 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

The perfection man is called to is a perfection within imperfection. It occurs within a new mind, in that we desire to do that which is right, and hate evil. All people will make mistakes, but the ones that have nailed their old man to the tree will make their missteps, revile it, and give it up for forgiveness. It's all about if the Holy Spirit is the one guiding you...God knows the heart, and he knows what each man truly desires to follow - man or God. That's why we aren't to be legalistic, because we can't follow the Law to the "t." The law only serves as a mirror, to show us where our blemishes are. Faith in Christ is what saves a man - and if you have real faith, you desire to follow God. You are given the mind of Christ, and being obedient to His Law is simply the consequence of our faith, not the cause.

1 John 1:21 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

That's perfection in a nutshell, man. That if you have allowed Him into your life, you have your sins covered in His blood. When we enter heaven, we're covered. The Father see's Christ, not us, because He paid the debt which required utter perfection. And everything's forgivable if we want it forgiven (and out of our life).

Now, my criticisms of Rome go beyond the Nazi's.

"For teaching faith contrary to the teaching of the Church of Rome, history records the martyrdom of more than 100 million people." Brief Bible Readings p. 16

From 538ad to 1798ad, they wore out anyone that opposed their authority. That's why the bible was only in Latin all those years, because they didn't want scriptural teachings to destroy their babylonian inspired traditions. They actually edited the 10 Commandments. When the bible got into the hands of the people, they left..but were massacred throughout the dark ages.

They haven't proved to be much different than Hitler over the course of history. I'm just being honest. They have been, and always will be about power. And that's why they ultimately sided with Germany at the time. Those aren't just missteps. They are a religo-political system, and that's why you never blend church and state.

Originally Posted by TheBaschnagelnator

I mean, technically... can we say that we can become flawless and never show a character deficit ever again? No. I'm not saying that at all. That's not the perfection mankind is to strive for, neither is it possible given our nature. But yet, we're still called to be "perfect." So, what does this mean?: Matt 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

The perfection man is called to is a perfection within imperfection. It occurs within a new mind, in that we desire to do that which is right, and hate evil. All people will make mistakes, but the ones that have nailed their old man to the tree will make their missteps, revile it, and give it up for forgiveness. It's all about if the Holy Spirit is the one guiding you...God knows the heart, and he knows what each man truly desires to follow - man or God. That's why we aren't to be legalistic, because we can't follow the Law to the "t." The law only serves as a mirror, to show us where our blemishes are. Faith in Christ is what saves a man - and if you have real faith, you desire to follow God. You are given the mind of Christ, and being obedient to His Law is simply the consequence of our faith, not the cause.

1 John 1:21 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

That's perfection in a nutshell, man. That if you have allowed Him into your life, you have your sins covered in His blood. When we enter heaven, we're covered. The Father see's Christ, not us, because He paid the debt which required utter perfection. And everything's forgivable if we want it forgiven (and out of our life).

Now, my criticisms of Rome go beyond the Nazi's.

"For teaching faith contrary to the teaching of the Church of Rome, history records the martyrdom of more than 100 million people." Brief Bible Readings p. 16

From 538ad to 1798ad, they wore out anyone that opposed their authority. That's why the bible was only in Latin all those years, because they didn't want scriptural teachings to destroy their babylonian inspired traditions. They actually edited the 10 Commandments. When the bible got into the hands of the people, they left..but were massacred throughout the dark ages.

They haven't proved to be much different than Hitler over the course of history. I'm just being honest. They have been, and always will be about power. And that's why they ultimately sided with Germany at the time. Those aren't just missteps. They are a religo-political system, and that's why you never blend church and state.

Equating anyone or anything to Hitler is not being honest imho...such comparisons are always troubling and usually the result of a deep-seeded and blinding bias/agenda...clearly you have an ax to grind against the Catholic Church that far exceeds my desire to defend them...I have said my peace regarding the Church and its relationship with Nazi Germany...I have no interest with debating 2000 years of Church history and behavior with you....