Thread: Liuget @ #23 or Sherrod @ #29 ? or ?.........

Originally Posted by soulman

Shut down???? We lost two of three including the NFC Championship Game. For the most part Rodgers had time to throw but better coverage and dropped passes in key spots kept us in the game, not an in your face pass rush. Let's face it Lovies defense is not that tough to pass the ball on when there isn't a hard inside rush. We've been talking about this as a need ever since the end of last season not just since Harris was cut. A young UT has been on the list for a while now.

We've got great DE's but even Peppers can be neutralized and there were times last year when he was. Now imagine how much more effective he and Izzy could be with a guy who can bring pressure and sacks like Tommie Harris did before his injuries. One great pass rusher is not gonna get it in this system. I really don't know why you resist this idea since both Lovie and Marinelli talk about it constantly.

You keep bringing up FA's who don't play a 3t position and keep insisting that they can if given the opportunity. Then why don't they and why aren't they being highly touted in FA since every team can use a pass rushing DT. Bull rush pressure from a good NT helps but it's the penetrator who causes the most trouble because he can't step up and away from the outside rush without running into the UT if he's shooting his gap. Matt Toeina is a good example of a NT type playing UT. You can't tell me that anyone of thse guys you list is gonna be any better at it than Toe. Sorry Windy but I ain't buyin' it.

You talk about guys who can function at UT like that's all that we need. It's not. We need a UT who can be a dominator against pass protection and you get those guys in the draft. No team with one would part with him unless they converted to 3-4 where he wouldn't be needed. Don't believe me? Then look at how much the Bears paid Harris and how long they held on to him hoping he'd recover his past glory. Most guys around here would have rather we kept Alex and sent Tommie packing.

And that's 'bout all I got to say about that.

Yes defensively we shut them down in 3 games, against one of the best offenses in the league we allowed

41 points, as a side note the Steelers allowed 31 points to this team in 1 game.

And in those games our offense we scored

30 points

You tell me what the real problem is?

I am not saying that the 3 technique position is not a need, but it is not one we invest serious resources into before the OL is fixed.

If this team wants to win a Superbowl it will be because of Jay Cutler and right now he has nothing to work with.

Fix the hole in the wall before you fix the seal around the window.

Originally Posted by soulman

We can fix most of it in FA and the rest in the draft from the 2nd round on. I'll bet you $1000 Bears Bucks we get a top notch OG in FA. We'll also get at least on OT in either FA or the draft and another OG/C in the draft. Most of us are telling you this but you just don't want to believe it!

If we have those options in free agency then I would be very okay with whatever other options come our of the draft. But the truth remains that we do not know what is going to happen in free agency or what it will look like. If it looks like this year then none of the free agents that we want are going to be there.

I agree if a guy like Liuget is there at 29 then we take him because the value is there, but to me UT is not a big enough need to invest multiple picks into with a trade up, which is where this conversation started.

Originally Posted by lklrlolnlilklsox

Yeah, they sure were feared all the way to the 20th ranking against the pass and the fact that QBs didn't have to worry about having anyone in their face damn near all game. I've said it before and I'll say it again, we got lucky quite a few times last year with timely drops that could have opened up games combined with some big plays from our secondary in clutch situations. Our D is indeed above average, but it is not dominant, and not far enough above average to ignore a pressing concern for a fifth straight year.

They simply aren't UTs. Obviously you confused me for yourself when you assume I don't watch other teams play and haven't seen these guys play. Mebane is a E-W lineman, we need a N-S one who gets into the pocket. Cofield is simply a run stopper. If they were, their teams would play them there because that is hugely more valuable and harder to find than a run stopper in the 4-3. Not to meniton they would find a way to get into the backfield. Go ahead and break down the tape in your shitty delusion that any one of those guys is a better UT option than who we already have in-house. It's not fucking rocket science. Keep believing hammering square pegs of average players into round holes of paramount positions is a good idea, though. Again, square pegs, round holes don't work at this level. We play in a system with a strict definition of it's units, just like every other specialized scheme in the NFL.

Unlike UT, there are actual QUALITY options there to be had in FA to fill a spot on the OL. We're not going to overhaul our OL, and really, I see a two spot turnover at the very most.

In the end, I don't really give two shits where the first pick is OT or UT, I just want the bigger impact player in the first. We NEED OL badly, and everyone and their mother knows that. Problem is, when I see you boosting up guys like Franklin and Cannon into the first, that just screams for the type of shitty "need pick" that flops more often than not. All I know is that some of our OL woes can be fixed via FA, and I am even more confident that our black hole at UT cannot.

You are talking about square pegs and round holes, when most of these guys are like oval pegs and are not that far off from what we are looking for.

I have watched both of these guys play and I so not have "shitty delusions"of them being perfect 3 techniques like Tommie when he was healthy. What I see is talented defensive lineman that will increase the talent level of our DL and provide some level of penetration up the middle. Cofield is not asked to do this for the Giants because they gave Canty 49 million dollars and he can't do it.

What options in the draft are perfect 3 techniques? Liuget and his 8.5 career sacks?

The truth is I do not see a realistic UT options in this draft or free agency, there is no Gerald McCoy or Tommie Harris so I say we fill the void with the most talented player possible and if Liuget is going top 20 the most talented option may be Mebane, even though he is not perfect.

I only bring up Cannon and Franklin because I am trying to explore all options for our OL and how we can best go about fixing it. In my perfect world we get a real shot at Carimi or Sherrod and we live happily ever after.

Originally Posted by soulman

Good Windy now go find me an OT who can start on the left side from day one who you think will be there at pick #29 or tell me where we should trade down to to be assured of getting one. The real answer to that is that there isn't one. Carimi and Costanzo come close but even those guys may not do it day one.

JA has talked about the quantity of quality Olineman but nowhere have I seen in print him saying that there are dominating LT around our spot in the draft. We've already picked two during his tenure who were said to be suspect. One isn't even with us anymore and the other was playing LG last season and that guy was picked much higher than #29. We may have a desperate need but we should never use that as an excuse to make a bad pick because of it. Anyone else besides Sherrod and the two I've mentioned would be a huge reach at #29 and there are those who think that even Sherrod is a reach there.

Windy thse guys are rated much higher than usual because they're the best available but there are no sure things in there. Not even Smith and he'll be gone long before we pick and is even out of reach in a trade up.

The UT spot is a big enough need that if a guy like Liuget is there he's the guy you take plain and simple. Give me one guy who may be able to dominate his position ahead of the two or three others who probably won't dominate theirs. Like I said Windy there are no Joe Thomas' or Tony Boselli's in this draft.

The Bears have no business drafting a guy like Cannon that high when most have him as anywhere from a mid to late 2nd round pick. The same with Orlando Franklin. These guys are the Terry Metcalf's of this draft and even Tice won't be able to fix them.

What dominating 3 technique DT is going to be there at 29?

I think we have a better shot at an OT then we do a DT.

And to be honest I have as much faith in Sherrod being a starting LT Day 1 as I do of Liuget being our starting DT.

Originally Posted by WindyCity

Cofield is not asked to do this for the Giants because they gave Canty 49 million dollars and he can't do it.

What options in the draft are perfect 3 techniques? Liuget and his 8.5 career sacks?

The truth is I do not see a realistic UT options in this draft or free agency, there is no Gerald McCoy or Tommie Harris so I say we fill the void with the most talented player possible and if Liuget is going top 20 the most talented option may be Mebane, even though he is not perfect.

I only bring up Cannon and Franklin because I am trying to explore all options for our OL and how we can best go about fixing it. In my perfect world we get a real shot at Carimi or Sherrod and we live happily ever after.

Umm, you do realize that makes Cofield's ability even MORE suspect, right? If he can't take that role over from Canty, he is just plain no good at it.

Watch Liuget's tape this year. He was a terror in the backfield while playing next to little talent. His motor is undeniable and he put together such an underrated season. He just makes plays in the backfield.

You don't see any UT options, well, then you know less about the players in this draft than I previously suspected from your 1,000 mocks. Austin, Liuget, Paea, Wilkerson are Nevis as good of candidates for the role as you can expect past the elite prospects, and each of them thrived in this exact role in college. For my money, Austin is one of the more gifted pure UT prospects in a while. Heck, McClain, Guy, Jenkins and Casey are looking to go after our second pick and all of them show up well on tape at the position. LT, on the other hand can get a bit sketchy late 1, depending on how things shake out. If we get a shot at a guy like Solder or Sherrod, sure, I pull the trigger on one of them, but the odds are not in our favor on that one and compounding that misfortune by scraping the barrel for OL whose talent doesn't match up with a top 30 pick doesn't make sense. We need both, but talent trumps need.