Thread: You guys didn't hate Lovie last season.

Originally Posted by Dagan81

I'll agree with you and Jimmors that Martz sabotaged this team, but what I will never be able to fathom or understand is how Angelo did NOT, in effect, sabotage the team. It's well known apparently that he wouldn't go out and get Martz his veteran quarterback in free agency until it was far too late, and that Angelo and the coaching staff were apparently at odds for a while. Maybe he was out to get Lovie Smith fired and thus wipe the slate clean to hire someone else for him to push around since Lovie had such a strong foothold in Chicago by the time of Angelo's firing.

The best explanation I can give is that Jerry Angelo would get absolutely no benefit out of sabotaging the team. His problems were directly related to his ineptitude in drafting over the years and most recently in free agency. Much like the Colts and Bill Polian too much depended on one player and neither team had an adequate replacement when that guy went down. Polian was the other guy who took a similar course in free agency culling high draft choice failures from other teams. Is it any surprise then that both GM's lost their jobs?

Despite saying just the opposite I believe Martz knew he wouldn't be back and truth be told I don't he minded that at all. He'd much rather be in a college program where he can do it all his way as opposed to the limitations placed on him by Lovie. If the guy was truly interested in staying he wouldn't have turned down the extension he was offered. Martz is one half genius and one half pathological. He's arrogant to a fault and has very little grasp on the reality that surrounded him. Why else would you consistently construct game plans you knew your offense couldn't execute? All Mike Martz cared about this year was Mike Martz and his reputation. By scuttling Hanie like he did that provides him with all the excuse he'll need to answer for why he failed. Hanie wasn't his guy to begin with and I really don't think Cutler would have been his first choice for a guy to run his offense either.

What bothered me most was something one of the sportswriters observed after the Oakland game. We had just lost a close game and Hanie made a poor showing but rather than look upset about it Martz came out of the coaches booth whistling a tune like we had just won and he made Hanie into his new Kurt Warner. To the sportwriter it almost seemed that Martz was happy that he had proven Hanie wasn't any good. Every week that followed he upped the pressure on Hanie even more saying he wasn't giving him enough to work with. I think that was pure bullshit. He did the same thing to Hanie he began the season doing to Cutler and he knew Hanie would try to please him so he did as he was asked. Martz pretty much sealed Hanie's fate as far as an NFL career is concerned.

Originally Posted by soulman

The best explanation I can give is that Jerry Angelo would get absolutely no benefit out of sabotaging the team. His problems were directly related to his ineptitude in drafting over the years and most recently in free agency. Much like the Colts and Bill Polian too much depended on one player and neither team had an adequate replacement when that guy went down. Polian was the other guy who took a similar course in free agency culling high draft choice failures from other teams. Is it any surprise then that both GM's lost their jobs?

Despite saying just the opposite I believe Martz knew he wouldn't be back and truth be told I don't he minded that at all. He'd much rather be in a college program where he can do it all his way as opposed to the limitations placed on him by Lovie. If the guy was truly interested in staying he wouldn't have turned down the extension he was offered. Martz is one half genius and one half pathological. He's arrogant to a fault and has very little grasp on the reality that surrounded him. Why else would you consistently construct game plans you knew your offense couldn't execute? All Mike Martz cared about this year was Mike Martz and his reputation. By scuttling Hanie like he did that provides him with all the excuse he'll need to answer for why he failed. Hanie wasn't his guy to begin with and I really don't think Cutler would have been his first choice for a guy to run his offense either.

What bothered me most was something one of the sportswriters observed after the Oakland game. We had just lost a close game and Hanie made a poor showing but rather than look upset about it Martz came out of the coaches booth whistling a tune like we had just won and he made Hanie into his new Kurt Warner. To the sportwriter it almost seemed that Martz was happy that he had proven Hanie wasn't any good. Every week that followed he upped the pressure on Hanie even more saying he wasn't giving him enough to work with. I think that was pure bullshit. He did the same thing to Hanie he began the season doing to Cutler and he knew Hanie would try to please him so he did as he was asked. Martz pretty much sealed Hanie's fate as far as an NFL career is concerned.

So, basically, what this boils down to is intent and thereof the degree? Angelo didn't intentionally set out to destroy the Bears but Martz did? Am I getting this right?

Originally Posted by Dagan81

So, basically, what this boils down to is intent and thereof the degree? Angelo didn't intentionally set out to destroy the Bears but Martz did? Am I getting this right?

Somewhat, although in Martz's case I think it was less about intentionally hurting the team than helping himself at all costs. If I'm right about Martz's pathological thinking then normal logic won't apply. Nothing will be as it seems. I've had some experience with people like that. You're initial impression of them is very favorable and their intentions seems honest but every move they make is calculated to help them and if you get hurt in the process well the end justifies the means.

Martz never liked Hanie from the start and I believe he handled him very poorly to the point of not fully preparing him as Cutler's backup but still telling everyone that he had and that Hanie would do just fine. So when Hanie fails he can point to him and say that the guy never had it in him to begin with. He got Todd Collins last year so he didn't have to deal with Hanie as the backup and Collins played despite being even worse than Hanie looked this year. This year he didn't persuade JA to get him a vet backup so he was saddled with Hanie and if you remember back to camp he was already getting into his head then.

When Cutler went down I think Martz knew there was no way he'd be back because he knew Hanie wasn't well enough prepared to take over and that the team would probably lose some games with him. In his mind it makes perfect sense to set Hanie up as his fall guy so Martz himself doesn't bear the brunt of the blame and smudge his reputation for his next gig. He was aware of the fact that doing this would probably cost the Bears games but in his mind it was more important to protect himself than the team.

Obviously there no way to actually prove it but I believe this is the way the guy thinks. He intends to be a survivor and that type will always place their own interests in front of others, morals and ethics be damned.

Originally Posted by soulman

Somewhat, although in Martz's case I think it was less about intentionally hurting the team than helping himself at all costs. If I'm right about Martz's pathological thinking then normal logic won't apply. Nothing will be as it seems. I've had some experience with people like that. You're initial impression of them is very favorable and their intentions seems honest but every move they make is calculated to help them and if you get hurt in the process well the end justifies the means.

Martz never liked Hanie from the start and I believe he handled him very poorly to the point of not fully preparing him as Cutler's backup but still telling everyone that he had and that Hanie would do just fine. So when Hanie fails he can point to him and say that the guy never had it in him to begin with. He got Todd Collins last year so he didn't have to deal with Hanie as the backup and Collins played despite being even worse than Hanie looked this year. This year he didn't persuade JA to get him a vet backup so he was saddled with Hanie and if you remember back to camp he was already getting into his head then.

When Cutler went down I think Martz knew there was no way he'd be back because he knew Hanie wasn't well enough prepared to take over and that the team would probably lose some games with him. In his mind it makes perfect sense to set Hanie up as his fall guy so Martz himself doesn't bear the brunt of the blame and smudge his reputation for his next gig. He was aware of the fact that doing this would probably cost the Bears games but in his mind it was more important to protect himself than the team.

Obviously there no way to actually prove it but I believe this is the way the guy thinks. He intends to be a survivor and that type will always place their own interests in front of others, morals and ethics be damned.

That is some interesting food for thought, soul. If, indeed, Martz never worked with any of his QBs outside of Cutler, then he wsa pretty short-sighted to begin with. I would hate to think that he put all of those negative ideas into Hanie's head simply because that is just inhumane, but if he did, then it sounds like you are correct in your assertion that he was just trying look out for number one and fuck everything else.

Originally Posted by claymore58

While I don't "hate" Lovie,I haven't been on the bandwagon for sometime.
I've been critical of him for what he's said and done.
I'd rather have sent him on his way,and kept all the cards on the table for a new GM.
The caveats that Ted set up,will cause some prospects to shy away,maybe rightly so.
I think that it detracts from the good opportunity the Bears GM position might be.
As we saw during the OC search,some of the best candidates have gone elsewhere.
That's not saying there isn't a good fit out there,but the pool is shrinking.
I commend Lovie for doing a decent job,with lackluster talent.
I disagree with his philosophy,that's where I have an issue with him.
While defense,ST and turnovers will win games;when you are being outscored,
it's really moot.

I think this is a fair summary of Lovie and it pretty much sums up the way I feel as well. I've never liked the way Lovie has bent the Bears away from the knock the snot out the other guy defense they have typically played and his game day coaching and time management make him one of the worst in the league.

Despite that I think he improved in both of those areas this year and truthfully I don't think there are any better candidates for a Bears HC right now. There are some great GM prospects but the lack of good HC prospects makes keeping on a sensible way to go for now.

I also don't think GM candidates are put off by having to live with Lovie and his staff in 2012. Eric DeCosta said as much and he was the Bears first pick. It would have been very easy to have used that as an excuse for declining to interview but he didn't. These GM prospects aren't dumb. They are as aware of the current availability of HC prospects as anyone and they also know it isn't very good right now. A year from now that may all change and whoever takes the job will have the ability to make a change then if necessary.

Originally Posted by 4th and 26

I got this one Motownbear. The reason you didn't see the hate is because DB54 was on the site spamming it with every possible suck ass thread he could find while ignoring the bad things the organization. As soon as someone said something negative about the bears he would bump 20-30 threads he started.

There has always been hate for Jerry Angelo, but DB54 never spammed the board by bumping 20 or 30 threads he started just to cover up what was said about him. Now, he would bitch about people calling Angelo a cheap skate or a rat bastard or whatever else, but I don't remember him responding by bumping threads to cover up what others said about him. And that's despite the fact that I despise Jerry Angelo.

The order of my dislike these past two years has always be Angelo first, Martz second and Lovie third. Angelo had to go no matter what especially after his failures in this years free agency which followed on the heels of last years. We got our money's worth and more out of Peppers but he's spent more than it would have cost him for a good LT and #1 WR on guys like Taylor, Manu, Meriweather, RWill and the like. The waste of $$$ like the $250k bonus he gave to Vernon Gholston is just part of what did him in.

Martz never stuck with the alterations to game plans and play calling he promised. Just like a five year old getting into things he shouldn't every time mommy's back is turned every time Martz wasn't haltered he went right back to his 7 step drop passing game. As far as I was concerned that was just open defiance of what Lovie expected from him.

I would have been in favor of dumping Lovie too had he not turned a corner in his approach to things this year. At the point when the team was 2-3 and struggling he got them back on track and if not for the key injuries we finish well into the black despite the lack to talent and depth and having to fight Martz at every turn. I'm still not Lovie's biggest fan but he deserves another chance at the helm without having to fight all the issues he had to overcome this year.