Thread: Lack of Talent or Just Bad Coaching?....................

Originally Posted by MPBears68

Lovie's strengths/credits
Respected by his players and has their confidence
Good motivator/locker room HC
Consistently overachieves on D despite growing holes and aging key players
Improved use of challenges this year

Lovie's weaknesses/demerits
Still not a good game day tactician (although I do blame MM's playcalls for some of the wasted TOs & clock mismanagement)
Hasn't yet adapted to new O-oriented league (had a "D & ST alone wins" mindest, "3rd leg of the stool" has been neglected)
Relied too heavily on MM and failed to exercise timely restraint & correction towards him X 2 years
Must share some (minority) of JA's blame for under-prioritizing WR/OL personnel needs

It is easy to vent your frustration all too often at the HC--sometimes deserved, sometimes not--but I also agree that most of the recent failures have to be laid at the feet of JA & MM. I hated those incompetent assholes for the way they mishandled both player acquisition and player usage. Lovie is far from HOF material as a coach but I can live with him and generally believe that he does a pretty good job despite needing some improvement.

The Handwriting is on the wall though, so to speak. Both Toub and Tice are potential in-house replacements and Lovie has to be looking over his shoulder with a new GM coming onboard and his contact drawing to a close. If the new GM is able to use the draft + FA aggresively like we all hope to really bolster this team, it will be put up or shut time for LS next year. If he is handed some new & improved personnel, and only delivers RexRyan/NorvTurner like results, I think he will be let go a year from now. Lovie has to know his future job is on the line in 2012 and a WC berth is the minimum expectation of him.

Just my best guess...

To be honest, I don't really know how much input Lovie has on the draft. I know it's not like the situation in New England, where Bill Belichick has total control over most every aspect of the drafting AND coaching processes. I think Lovie makes suggestions, no doubt, and he has even stated publicly his dissaproval of the offensive line play. I think, mostly, it was Jerry Angelo who refused to focus on the offensive line until this last offseason, which he didn't deal with enough other than drafting Gabe Carimi. I don't think that signing Demetrius Bell is the answer since he is an injury-plagued version of J'Marcus Webb (both were, after all, drafted in the 7th Round of their respective draft classes). If Ohio State OT Mike Adams is available, I would draft him simply to give Webb some competition. However, I know that people will disagree with me vehemently over this idea since we have a lot of needs defensively as well as at WR. Right now, I don't think that a 2nd Round LT would be all that bad of a replacement for Webb, as Webb is arguably the worst LT in the NFL.

Originally Posted by GSH Monsters

I agree with Haugh's article the draft that everyone pins soley on JA's shoulders is a collaborative effort not just JA. Lovie is as much to blame as JA. I do lay some blame on JA for the FA's he's brought in but I think Phillips hinders/influenced the money side of JA's FA siginings. Angelo had to fight to persuade both PHillips and Lovie to get Cutler and it was at Martz's urgence to bring in Manumaleuna, Collins, and Williams and to get rid of Olsen and bring in Spaeth to fit his scheme. The GM tries to get players to suit the coaches needs and their Philosophy hence all the defense players drafted due to Lovie being a defensive minded coach and his tampa 2 scheme. On offense their has been so many different coordinators each with different philopsphys it is hard for any GM to get every player needed. Turner and Martz's systems are different requiring different players and in the end Lovie's defensive needs was put ahead of the offensive needs due to Lovie. JA did make his share of mistakes and misses but shouldn't bear the brunt of everything wrong with the Bears as Phillips, Smith are equally responsabile IMO. The new GM will have the same heirarchy in place and will be working with Smith in the war room and Phillips will still have a say in all major descions.

A peek in the war room 2010 draft video below, everyone you see in the room has some input into the draft picks, true enough JA spearheads it but the draft is a collabrative effort and if JA is to blame for the draft failures because he spear heads it isn't Phillips to blame for JA and remaining with him so long using the same principle.

http://www.chicagobears.com/multimed...mp;play_clip=Y

Although I believe all of what you say GSH it still comes down to the guy who sat in the captains chair. The gjuy who pulled the trigger on these personnel moves. It wasn't all Angelo's fault but I believe his last two years in FA did him in.

He spent a lot of money on guys who produced nothing. Peppers was a great move albeit a costly one necessitated by his failures to draft great pass rushers. After than virtually every move he made was a bad one right on through his failures to fix glaring problems at WR and OT and the money wasted on a couple of non or under-performing Free Agents like Meriweather and RWill. Then of course there was the thing with Hurd which proved to be an embarrassment for the organization.

I agree that not all of the failure of the Bears to make it back to the playoffs is on him but much of it is and we needed a change. Whatever way we were going about things wasn't working. We got worse in 2011 not better.

Originally Posted by soulman

Although I believe all of what you say GSH it still comes down to the guy who sat in the captains chair. The gjuy who pulled the trigger on these personnel moves. It wasn't all Angelo's fault but I believe his last two years in FA did him in.

He spent a lot of money on guys who produced nothing. Peppers was a great move albeit a costly one necessitated by his failures to draft great pass rushers. After than virtually every move he made was a bad one right on through his failures to fix glaring problems at WR and OT and the money wasted on a couple of non or under-performing Free Agents like Meriweather and RWill. Then of course there was the thing with Hurd which proved to be an embarrassment for the organization.

I agree that not all of the failure of the Bears to make it back to the playoffs is on him but much of it is and we needed a change. Whatever way we were going about things wasn't working. We got worse in 2011 not better.

Oh I agree but JA's downfall was listening to Martz on most of those FA acquisitions, I simply argue with everyone who pins everything wrong with the Bears solely on JA."s shoulders as Phillips and Lovie are equally accountable IMO. Everyone focuses on the failures but fails to see the big picture IMO, like Haughs article pointing out the difference between the rosters and Lovie and Coughlin. Look at what Toub was able to do with the players he had on special teams and the turnover talent wise, he had less to work with than in the past but yet still managed to rank highly in the special teams dept. Lovie plays a big part in the draft, he recommends or tell the GM what he believes the team needs the GM doesn't just go draft and grab FA's at will and say here is your players.

They JA, his scouts, Ruskell, Lovie and O and D coordinators all are in the draft room and as you could see from the video and even from speeches from all the front office and coaches all mention words like "we felt this was best" not I, it's a collaborative effort. JA's downfall is picking the wrong scouts IMO as he relies on their intel on the draft picks and why I wasn't as bent out of shape as some when he did finally get rid of DePaul and Gabriel as they were who JA relied for the intel on draft picks. So far last years draft class with Ruskell running the scouting dept. doesn't seem to be to bad, Carimi looks to be a good pick up at RT, Paea the jusry is still out on but defiantly seems better than say Gilbert to name just one, Conte did well when called upon and Enderle was hand picked by Martz.

Based upon the intel from those scouts the draft board is formed and JA along with Lovie and all involved hash out their picks based on what Lovie feels the team needs are and where those they have targeted are on the board according to value. JA does spearhead the draft but far from the only one involved and as far as FA's he also listens to the coaches and their needs and of course Phillips has final say over major acquisitions such as Cutler, Peppers etc. all with taking the cap figures into consideration. Why I say the new GM will be under the same Hierarchy as JA had and working with Smith as well as Phillips, the two major exceptions being the new GM will hire his own draft scouts I have to assume, one reason why most GM's prefer to hire their own coaches is because they work together on the draft amongst other things.

It's okay and all water under the bridge at this point I just wonder how long if the Bears do not improve under the new GM before fans are clamoring for his head as well when IMO it should be Phillips first then the GM and coaches. Failure of the organization starts at the top and trickles down for it's those in charge who has failed to put the right people in place to succeed and the whole should be accountable not just one person.

Here's hoping the new GM is a miracle worker and all is right with the Bears going forward.

Doesn't anyone find it funny Lovie is from a defensive background and everyone knows Lovie's philosophy as a head coach is to play good defense and run the ball. JA ignored or neglected the offensive side of the ball due to Lovie's philosophy and scheme as a head coach, more attention was payed to the defensive side of the ball. Things changed a bit when Martz was hired as OC and the offensive philosophy change came with Martz such as getting rid of Olsen and Clark who didn't fit Martz's scheme and bringing in Manumaleuna, Williams, Spaeth was trying to get players to fit Martz and his scheme and his suggestions, JA's fault for listening but a GM is supposed to listen to the coach and their needs for positions according to their philosophy and what they are trying to do/get done. Either way the new GM will inherit Lovie per Phillips mistake IMO and the only saving grace will be if Tice can convince Lovie to draft to his needs over Lovies own defensive needs or at least find a way to compromise between the draft and free agents. People blame JA for bringing in the likes of Archuleta and Pace but both of those where again Lovie recommendations from his stint in St. Louis and Phillips overseeing all major transactions. I am of the mind it's not just one person to blame for everything but a group of persons starting with Phillips including both JA and Lovie and if a change was to be made IMO it should have at the very least been both JA and Lovie as I feel the McCaskeys hold Phillips in to high of regards to relieve him of his role as President and CEO.

Anyone else find it funny that out of the 4 teams this year that fired their GM only the Bears under Phillips stipulated that the new GM had to keep Lovie at least through the 2012 season, the two teams that kept their coaches ultimately let the new GM decide and both upon their hiring released the current coach.

A funny quote from acting Chairman of the Board George McCaskey; "Under our organizational structure, ownership selects the president and CEO. The president and CEO, in consultation with ownership, selects the general manager. The general manager, in consultation with the president and ownership, selects the head coach."

Shouldn't that be Phillips selects the GM in consultation with Lovie Smith and ownership in this case? Doesn't that mean at this point and time both Phillips and Lovie wield the power within the organization. This is just as bad as the botched attempt at hiring an OC all the well while the candidates knew it could be a one and done deal and had to settle on Martz as he was the only option left.

I can't find any fault in your thinking about how it's supposed to work and how this is a method that's a little strange. I still don't think Lovie has as much authority as most think. I think it has a lot more with his ability to identify a guy he can't work with than choosing one he can. Who knows whether or not all five of their interviewees were guys Lovie had no problem with and there was no need to even exercise any so called veto power.

Both Lovie and Angelo have serious depth in defensive backgrounds so Angelo's emphasis on the defensive side of the ball was probably enhanced with Lovie as a coach. I don't think Angelo has ever had much ability to judge offensive talent and I be willing to wager Lovie has almost none. Given that situation it's not really hard to see why neither of them did much shopping on that side of the ball other than to try plugging some holes in stopgap fashion with some FA pickups, some good, some bad, some simply awful. Whatever Angelo may have decided to do towards getting Martz the skill players he needed he did a half ass job of it at best. Obviously the work was never completed and all season long no one seemed to know if Martz would be staying or going, even Angelo.

Let's face it. For the last two years this team has been run like a cluster fuck but it managed to win despite that. If you want my opinion THAT has been what saved Lovies job. That and the fact that there really weren't a pile of better choices just waiting for the chance to coach the Bears. So the new GM has one season where her and Lovie need to work together to turn this team around. If it doesn't happen then it doesn't and Lovie will no doubt be gone and a new coach on his way in. For whatever it's worth at least this wasn't a total tear down and a start over from scratch move. For a team that was one game away from a Super Bowl appearance a year ago this time that struggled after the two mainstays of the offense went down I think that would have been premature without at least trying to restore that level of play right away.

My only concern now is if this is why they're going about it this way then let's get a GM hired, fill out the coaching staff, re-sign our key UFA's and get ready to upgrade the team immediately through FA and the draft. There is no other choice right now unless we want to fall even farther behind the NFCN competition.

Originally Posted by yttocs

Webb isn't the worse LT in the NFL. OMG is, Webb is just a real close second.

I lump OMG into a bigger catagory. He's the worst offensive lineman in the entire league, at any position. I was just pointing out Webb as a full-time LT.