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Lack of Talent or Just Bad Coaching?....................
Flaw with Bears the roster, or Smith's ability to get most out of it?
Perhaps Phillips didn't go far enough in his shake-up
 Coach Tom Coughlin and the Giants upset the Packers on Sunday. (Jeff Haynes/Reuters photo)
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David Haugh's In the Wake of the News 11:07 p.m. CST, January 16, 2012
On the day after the Giants interviewed Tom Coughlin for their head-coaching position in December 2003, they discussed the job for four hours with Lovie Smith.
In a St. Louis hotel suite, Smith impressed former Giants Vice President Ernie Accorsi by handing him a meticulously detailed calendar for the coming year that accounted for every day. Smith displayed vision and spoke with passion.
- David Haugh's In the Wake of the News
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Coughlin's experience established him as the clear front-runner, but Accorsi later told the New York Daily News that Smith's presentation, "made our decision a lot more complicated."
Back in Chicago, the Bears never seriously considered putting Coughlin on their short list of head-coaching candidates because circumstances made it hard to imagine him working for the general manager who fired Coughlin's close friend Dick Jauron.
The Giants hired Coughlin on Jan. 6, 2004 — but only after then-LSU coach Nick Saban withdrew. Nine days later, the Bears introduced Smith as head coach.
Coughlin has won a Super Bowl, gone 74-54 in the regular season and 6-3 in the postseason while making the playoffs five times. Smith has been Super Bowl runner-up, gone 71-57 in the regular season and 3-3 in the postseason while making the playoffs three times.
Despite spending more time on the hot seat, Coughlin never let injuries or inconsistency along the offensive line and staff turnover impede progress the way Smith has too often after the 2006 season.
They represent two of the steadiest head coaches in the NFC in the last decade, but the ring and playoff regularity make it easy to conclude the Giants made the right choice when comparing the best from the Class of 2004.
It was impossible not to reminisce about this intersection in coaching history Sunday night in the Lambeau Field press box, watching Coughlin's Giants do what Smith declared on Day 1 would be his top priority for the Bears: Beat the Packers. Again.
If Smith enjoyed as much success in Green Bay as Coughlin has, I doubt he would have spent his eighth anniversary of becoming an NFL head coach watching the playoffs at home. (By the way, Bears fans, anniversary No. 8 is bronze if you're shopping.)
A stunning 37-20 victory — the most significant moment in the NFL postseason, Tim Tebow highlights included — made Coughlin 2-0 in the playoffs at Lambeau and 3-3 against the Packers during his Giants tenure. Smith, in contrast, dropped below .500 against the Packers with four losses in the 2011 calendar year, making him 8-9 in rivalry games.
In beating the Packers when it matters most, and in other ways, the Giants under Coughlin have become what the Bears wanted to be under Smith. The Giants developed a franchise quarterback in Eli Manning they acquired in a draft day trade in 2004 and won a Super Bowl with him complementing a fierce, attacking defense and a strong ground game.
The Bears thought they were taking a page from the book of Eli with Rex Grossman after winning the NFC in 2006, but gave up on Grossman three games into the '07 season when it seemed Smith started throwing darts at a board to pick quarterbacks. Eventually offensive experimentation gave way to the Jay Cutler Era, which I wholeheartedly endorse but has produced one playoff appearance in three seasons.
Seeing the Giants dominate their second straight playoff game after going 9-7 made me wonder if any skittish people at Halas Hall second-guessed the firing of Jerry Angelo. Three of the four weekend playoff games served as an endorsement for the style of football the Bears embraced during the Angelo regime.
The Bears badly lack a No. 1 deep threat Angelo neglected, but the role defense and the running game played in postseason victories suggested the Bears, as constituted, might be closer to being a playoff team than many thought.
Look closely at the Giants' depth chart before you scoff. Which team has the better core of players when healthy?
Julius Peppers. Brian Urlacher. Lance Briggs. Cutler. Matt Forte. Devin Hester. Charles Tillman. Roberto Garza.
Justin Tuck. Osi Umenyiora. Jason Pierre-Paul. Eli Manning. Brandon Jacobs. Hakeem Nicks. Victor Cruz. Chris Snee.
The number of core players the Giants drafted stands out more than any disparity in talent. The Bears draft-day misses fall on Angelo, the same GM who acquired Cutler and signed Peppers, and he paid for those mistakes with his job.
But the surging success of the Giants suggests the flaw with the Bears might not be as much with Angelo's roster as in Smith's ability to get the most out of it. Did team President Ted Phillips go too far in forcing change two weeks ago, or not far enough?
If I am one of the men interviewing this week for the Bears' GM job, that question will frame every other one that comes up.
dhaugh@tribune.com
Twitter @DavidHaugh
Copyright © 2012, Chicago Tribune
I'm getting to that age where a lifetime warranty just doesn't mean as much to me anymore as an afternoon nap. 
Honey Badger Don't Care. Honey Badger Don't Give a Shit.
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OK, I see where Haugh is going with this but there is far less disparity between the Bears and the Giants than there appears to be. Most of the difference in the Giants success against the Packers versus the Bears has come in the past two years and they didn't lose their starting QB when they played them. Had we stayed healthy there was just as much chance for the Cutler led Bears to unseat the Packers as the Giants had.
The argument for the Bears playing a different style of offense than Angelo would have preferred is defeated by the portion of the sentence I underlined says it all. Angelo went out an paid a very steep price for a franchise QB and failed to get him the pass receivers he needed to succeed as he had in Denver.
If you look at Haugh's comparison of each teams core players what differences do you see? I don't know about you guys but the lack of WR's who can compare with names like Manningham, Nicks, and Cruz stands out to me like a sore thumb. It was the Giants passing game and defense that beat the Packers on Sunday and while our defense and theirs may be comparable our passing game is no match for theirs even though Jay Cutler is every bit as good a QB as Eli Manning.
I think we all agree that some members of the coaching staff have done a poor job of developing players but what's the real reason? Is it them or is it the caliber of talent they were given by Jerry Angelo in his drafts. That's the question this article asks and while I certainly think some of the blame can be laid at the feet of the coaching staff I think we all have to admit that many of Angelo's drafts sucked big time.
Provided the new GM gets in here and does his utmost to fill those gaps in talent between the Bears and Giants or the Packers then we'll have our answer to the question David Haugh asks by this time next year. If we're watching teams other than the Bears play for a Super Bowl berth we'll be getting a new coach and coaching staff in 2013. To me that's the only way we'll really know if it's a problem with talent or with coaching.
Last edited by soulman; 01-17-2012 at 09:38 AM.
I'm getting to that age where a lifetime warranty just doesn't mean as much to me anymore as an afternoon nap. Honey Badger Don't Care. Honey Badger Don't Give a Shit.
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I think I knew Lovie was the problem when Dan Bazuin went on to tear up the league as the end opposite Jared Allen in Minnesota....
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I do find it interesting that so many of our players that just didn't cut it here, when on to play great for other team. Some of it could be the system, but that can't be the reason for some of them.
It can also be said had we gotten better talent out of JA, we would be a far better team today.
One thing I hope I never hear again is "he will make a great ST player" We need players that can play there position and help on ST not the other way around. Too many young players are put on our ST and aren't give the chance to improve at the skill position and when asked to just can't get the job done.
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Originally Posted by
Henry Burris 
I think I knew Lovie was the problem when Dan Bazuin went on to tear up the league as the end opposite Jared Allen in Minnesota....
LOL, he was our equivalent of Vernon Gholston. Look him up on the NFL site. In two years he has no stats. Like Blutarsky (Belushi) in Animal House, zero point zero. We seem to have knack for drafting injury prone players.
I'm getting to that age where a lifetime warranty just doesn't mean as much to me anymore as an afternoon nap. Honey Badger Don't Care. Honey Badger Don't Give a Shit.
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Originally Posted by
JJ-30 I do find it interesting that so many of our players that just didn't cut it here, when on to play great for other team. Some of it could be the system, but that can't be the reason for some of them.
It can also be said had we gotten better talent out of JA, we would be a far better team today.
One thing I hope I never hear again is "he will make a great ST player" We need players that can play there position and help on ST not the other way around. Too many young players are put on our ST and aren't give the chance to improve at the skill position and when asked to just can't get the job done.
I don't know that we've had all that many guys succeed elsewhere who didn't succeed here JJ. Mark Anderson had 10 sacks for NE this year but he's in his 7th year and should be doing something by now. When he was here he pretty much fell on his face after his rookie blast.
We haven't cut too many rookies or younger players that have been stars anywhere else. I think the reason for that is if they couldn't even make our Special Teams where Toub is looking for guys every year they probably aren't worth much to anyone else either.
Let's face it. Jerry Angelo was a very mediocre GM with as many failures as he had successes. His draft record for first rounders is abysmal.
I'm getting to that age where a lifetime warranty just doesn't mean as much to me anymore as an afternoon nap. Honey Badger Don't Care. Honey Badger Don't Give a Shit.
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Originally Posted by
soulman OK, I see where Haugh is going with this but there is far less disparity between the Bears and the Giants than there appears to be. Most of the difference in the Giants success against the Packers versus the Bears has come in the past two years and they didn't lose their starting QB when they played them. Had we stayed healthy there was just as much chance for the Cutler led Bears to unseat the Packers as the Giants had.
The argument for the Bears playing a different style of offense than Angelo would have preferred is defeated by the portion of the sentence I underlined says it all. Angelo went out an paid a very steep price for a franchise QB and failed to get him the pass receivers he needed to succeed as he had in Denver.
If you look at Haugh's comparison of each teams core players what differences do you see? I don't know about you guys but the lack of WR's who can compare with names like Manningham, Nicks, and Cruz stands out to me like a sore thumb. It was the Giants passing game and defense that beat the Packers on Sunday and while our defense and theirs may be comparable our passing game is no match for theirs even though Jay Cutler is every bit as good a QB as Eli Manning.
I think we all agree that some members of the coaching staff have done a poor job of developing players but what's the real reason? Is it them or is it the caliber of talent they were given by Jerry Angelo in his drafts. That's the question this article asks and while I certainly think some of the blame can be laid at the feet of the coaching staff I think we all have to admit that many of Angelo's drafts sucked big time.
Provided the new GM gets in here and does his utmost to fill those gaps in talent between the Bears and Giants or the Packers then we'll have our answer to the question David Haugh asks by this time next year. If we're watching teams other than the Bears play for a Super Bowl berth we'll be getting a new coach and coaching staff in 2013. To me that's the only way we'll really know if it's a problem with talent or with coaching.
I know Lovie and his staff (Drake in particular) have had their shortcomings in terms of player development, but I gotta place most of the blame for the "talent gap" on the FO at this point. We don't have a single WR that matches up to the any of the top 3 of NYG, Packers, or NO. Bennett and Knox maybe at the low end but even that is a stretch. I would add that the same applies to our overall OL too. All those teams protect their franchise QB better and more consistently than we have done the last few years. The WR/OL disparity is all the more obvious when you consider that we have Forte who is a better all-around TB than anything on those teams and Cutler is just as good as Eli, Aaron, and Drew...he just has far less to work with protection-wise and target-wise than they do.
If the new GM makes moves to substantially narrow that gap and the results aren't much different a year from now, then I have a feeling Lovie & Co. will be on the chopping block and deservedly so.
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Originally Posted by
MPBears68 I know Lovie and his staff (Drake in particular) have had their shortcomings in terms of player development, but I gotta place most of the blame for the "talent gap" on the FO at this point. We don't have a single WR that matches up to the any of the top 3 of NYG, Packers, or NO. Bennett and Knox maybe at the low end but even that is a stretch. I would add that the same applies to our overall OL too. All those teams protect their franchise QB better and more consistently than we have done the last few years. The WR/OL disparity is all the more obvious when you consider that we have Forte who is a better all-around TB than anything on those teams and Cutler is just as good as Eli, Aaron, and Drew...he just has far less to work with protection-wise and target-wise than they do.
If the new GM makes moves to substantially narrow that gap and the results aren't much different a year from now, then I have a feeling Lovie & Co. will be on the chopping block and deservedly so.
What I'm looking at is how few of his Oline picks even made the team. Until just recently he had a worse batting average for drafting Olineman than Adam Dunn. The same with WR's. Guys either were cast off injured (Marcus Robinson), cut (Justin Gage, Wade) traded (Engram, Booker) or left in FA (Berrian). At least we're able to keep Bennett and we can hope Knox is able to return but with exception of Bennett not one of our guys can match up with the Giants WR's. We haven't had a decent pair of receivers since Curtis Conway and Jeff Graham 15 years ago.
I think when you add that to his proclivity for drafting guys with an injury history and some of the worst FA moves in the league he had no business claiming the talent was there earlier this season. Obviously it wasn't. I just want to put this behind us now and get the new GM here and begin getting things back on track. We're in good shape cap wise and we have an extra 3rd round pick so he's got some tools to work with.
I'm getting to that age where a lifetime warranty just doesn't mean as much to me anymore as an afternoon nap. Honey Badger Don't Care. Honey Badger Don't Give a Shit.
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Considering both ja and lovie always insisted Hester is our number one big money wr I say both can go suck a dick. The only thing I give lovie is he has the respect of the players. Ja is sorry excuse of a gm
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High Fives / Like - 2 BEAR DOWN!, 0 Dislikes
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Originally Posted by
motownbear Considering both ja and lovie always insisted Hester is our number one big money wr I say both can go suck a dick. The only thing I give lovie is he has the respect of the players. Ja is sorry excuse of a gm
Major screw-up there that was stubbornly stuck with far too long...excellent point.
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