-
Originally Posted by
Papa Bear 
What's mind boggling is all of this debate over a couple #3 wide receivers. lol
+1
I think that we can all agree that we need a TRUE #1 in FA and draft a couple more. MM is NOT a true #1 so this debate is really a moot point and he shouldn't be in the equation at all. JMHO though as usual.
-
-
Originally Posted by
WindyCity We need a Mario Manningham and a Hakeem Nicks.
We need a #1 and #2 WR this offseason regardless if that is in the draft or free agency.
Agreed that we need at least 2 new WRs. It seems inescapably most logical that we pursue a "#1" in FA as there are options in FA and the draft is not likely to offer help past the early 1st AND a second (and even 3rd) WR should come from the draft. A "#2/#3" WR would be much cheaper in the draft and we have more luxury-of-time to allow a player in that secondary role to develop behind Bennett & Knox. This oughtta be the plan IMHO:
#1 FA--Bowe or VJax or Colston
#2 Bennett
#3a Knox (if medically ready)
#3b 2nd/3rd round draft pick
#5 Hester
#6 Sanz or later round draft pick
-
High Fives / Like - 1 BEAR DOWN!, 0 Dislikes
-
Soul if your ONLY looking at stats, then you have to agree MM is better. But you're not; you're only looking at 1 stat, and you have decided that is the only stat that a WR is messured by. You are the only one taking emotions into this, Factually MM is a hands down better WR in every statistical catagory, except YPC. MM also only has 1 extra year over JK, and he barely played that year, so really they are almost on par. Like Dagan pointed out, cherry picking stat's lie.
But stat's don't even tell the whole story of a WR, B/C what we don't know by those stats is, how often is MM targeted in that O compared to Knox in ours, How many drops do they both have in comparission to their receptions, how well does MM run routes game in game out, in the playoffs they looked mostly clean; he got knocked on one deep pass for being to close to the out of bounds; then is complimented a qtr later. Reality is we don't know if that is how he is asked to run that route based on the coverage. Unless we broke down a few seasons worth of game tape on him, we won't know for certain.
But we all have watched Johnny over the last few years. The knock on Knox is he plays soft, and run poor routes. He's also been knocked for having poor footwork, which is why he slips so much. And he is responcible for creating unnecissary turnovers. I have not heard the same regarding MM; but again no way for us to really know. But to think that Knox is equal based on what we know about him on the field, and statisically, it's not accurate. MM is an upgrade.
-
Originally Posted by
MPBears68 Agreed that we need at least 2 new WRs. It seems inescapably most logical that we pursue a "#1" in FA as there are options in FA and the draft is not likely to offer help past the early 1st AND a second (and even 3rd) WR should come from the draft. A "#2/#3" WR would be much cheaper in the draft and we have more luxury-of-time to allow a player in that secondary role to develop behind Bennett & Knox. This oughtta be the plan IMHO:
#1 FA--Bowe or VJax or Colston
#2 Bennett
#3a Knox (if medically ready)
#3b 2nd/3rd round draft pick
#5 Hester
#6 Sanz or later round draft pick
That 3a is a big IF; and another reason not to rely on Knox. The Colts were reling on Peyton to be ready, and it cost them a season...although it might have allowed them to get another FA qb through sheer luck(pun intended).
Depending on what they are looking at doing in FA, I'd like to see 1 and maybe 3b also be a lower teir FA. This WR core has been bad for awhile, and turnover is required. Sanz started off good, but showed why he was UFA; and I have no faith in Drake to correct his issues. Hester is a good slot guy to come in and scare the D; but he'd be much scarier if you had a guy that needed double teamed, and Bennet on the other side getting looks from the D.
-
Originally Posted by
Papa Bear What's mind boggling is all of this debate over a couple #3 wide receivers. lol
Well I'll certainly agree with you there but like I said in the thread starter it's open for debate and it has been thoroughly debated. LOL
I just wanted to see how many guys jumped up and got a hard on over MM after "the catch" as a guy we should pick up. There hasn't been one word about him for weeks but all of a sudden he's must have???????
MM is a pretty good WR in a system with a very good QB who plays behind a pretty good Oline and spreads the ball around a bit. Put MM on the Bears this past season and what do you have? Playing for the Super Bowl Champs his stats aren't anywhere near as good as the guy everyone says he should replace. That's ludicrous. We don't need a replacement for a #3 WR, we need a #1 WR and better pass blocking and they'll all look better.
I'm getting to that age where a lifetime warranty just doesn't mean as much to me anymore as an afternoon nap. 
Honey Badger Don't Care. Honey Badger Don't Give a Shit.
-
I don't think you can even count on Knox coming back or be what he was for a long while. And if he does who's going to coach him back up? Drake. Expect the best and hope for the worst. I've said before that perhaps they should look late in the draft for another wr/kor.
Arguing on the internet is like winning the special olympics, even if you win your still messed up.
Restore the roar!
-
Originally Posted by
Riczaj01 Soul if your ONLY looking at stats, then you have to agree MM is better. But you're not; you're only looking at 1 stat, and you have decided that is the only stat that a WR is messured by. You are the only one taking emotions into this, Factually MM is a hands down better WR in every statistical catagory, except YPC. MM also only has 1 extra year over JK, and he barely played that year, so really they are almost on par. Like Dagan pointed out, cherry picking stat's lie.
But stat's don't even tell the whole story of a WR, B/C what we don't know by those stats is, how often is MM targeted in that O compared to Knox in ours, How many drops do they both have in comparission to their receptions, how well does MM run routes game in game out, in the playoffs they looked mostly clean; he got knocked on one deep pass for being to close to the out of bounds; then is complimented a qtr later. Reality is we don't know if that is how he is asked to run that route based on the coverage. Unless we broke down a few seasons worth of game tape on him, we won't know for certain.
But we all have watched Johnny over the last few years. The knock on Knox is he plays soft, and run poor routes. He's also been knocked for having poor footwork, which is why he slips so much. And he is responcible for creating unnecissary turnovers. I have not heard the same regarding MM; but again no way for us to really know. But to think that Knox is equal based on what we know about him on the field, and statisically, it's not accurate. MM is an upgrade.
Ric, I don't agree and I've given every reason why and posted it. The only area where MM has a clear advantage is in TD's scored and none of this even takes into consideration Knox's contributions as a KOR. Let's simplify this even more. Forget about the past three years. Let's look at just 2011.
MM and Knox catch approximately the same number of passes 39 vs 37, correct? But Knox plays in two and a half less games than MM. Knox accumulates over 200 more yards than MM and averages over 6 yards more per reception and averages 26.5 ypr on KOR's. That's even better than Hester. MM is playing for the Super Bowl Champs with a pretty good Oline and a QB who played every game this year. Knox is playing in a less productive offense behind one of the worst pass blocking lines in the NFL and with a star QB who missed 6 games this year yet still managed to be 2nd on the team in receptions and led the team in passing yardage gained while missing two and half games and sharing his spot with RWill most of the year.
Ric you can have MM all day long if you want but I'll stick with Knox and what he brings to the table. My guess is that if MM was a Bear and only did as well as he did with NY you'd be hollering to replace him too.
PS: All those subjective things you bring up about running routes and passes dropped and not fighting or the ball etc. all end up being measured by what the guy has produced despite his shortcomings. A lot of what you say about Knox is true and despite that he's produced well enough to be the Bears leading WR two years running whereas MM production delclined by over 400 yards this year and he lost his #2 spot to Victor Cruz. I'd love to have a better deep threat at WR than Knox but MM isn't that guy.
I'm getting to that age where a lifetime warranty just doesn't mean as much to me anymore as an afternoon nap. Honey Badger Don't Care. Honey Badger Don't Give a Shit.
-
Originally Posted by
soulman Well I'll certainly agree with you there but like I said in the thread starter it's open for debate and it has been thoroughly debated. LOL
I just wanted to see how many guys jumped up and got a hard on over MM after "the catch" as a guy we should pick up. There hasn't been one word about him for weeks but all of a sudden he's must have???????
MM is a pretty good WR in a system with a very good QB who plays behind a pretty good Oline and spreads the ball around a bit. Put MM on the Bears this past season and what do you have? Playing for the Super Bowl Champs his stats aren't anywhere near as good as the guy everyone says he should replace. That's ludicrous. We don't need a replacement for a #3 WR, we need a #1 WR and better pass blocking and they'll all look better.
Wait who said we should grab him? I said he's an upgrade of what we have, for what he would cost, I'm not saying we should. And his stats are supierior to who'd he'd replace, not no where near.
He wasn't mentioned before b/c it was never brought up that he was an FA. Only the big 3(colston jax bowe were brought up). If I knew MM was an FA, I'd still not have said go after him, at least not as our #1 option, but he would have been mentioned. It wasn't just 1 catch, he made a few nice ones, and was close to another real nice one. He had a good playoff also, not just a good SB, or a good catch. Your minimalizing what he has contributed to that team this year, ecspecially in the post season.
I'd put Eli above Cutler, but not by leaps and bounds; and not b/c of his arm. It's not like MM has Brees or Peyton or Brady throwing him the ball. Cutler doens't spread it around b/c the cast isn't here to spread it around to. He's got guys like knox, RWill and Hester who are soft, Hester/Knox who cannot run a routes, and Bennet was hurt. A healthy Cutler w/those WR's on the Bears are SB winners too. Eli w/the Bears WR's does not win the SB.
This original post was not that we should take MM, it was that all three NYG's WR's could all start for Chicago, which is a true statement. It had nothing to do w/if we should replace our WR's in FA w/those three. Let alone MM. You decided to get all butt hurt about MM and if he was better then Knox(which statisically, other then yac) he is...and that was before the Knox spine injury.
-
Originally Posted by
Riczaj01 That 3a is a big IF; and another reason not to rely on Knox. The Colts were reling on Peyton to be ready, and it cost them a season...although it might have allowed them to get another FA qb through sheer luck(pun intended).
I'm not sure how this is a valid point. All of the Colts' hopes lied in Peyton being healthy and we saw the results without him in the lineup. If the Bears rely on Knox getting healthy, but he doesn't, I don't think it would really affect the bears all that much. Our season certainly wouldn't hang in the balance. Seems like you're comparing apples to filet mignon. That being said, I have agreed with you on needing a true #1 receiver as well as another #2/#3 or two to overhaul the receiving corps.
"Give 100%. 110% is impossible. Only idiots recommend that." - Ron Swanson
-
High Fives / Like - 1 BEAR DOWN!, 0 Dislikes
-
Soul, actually you need to look at your stats again, MM played in 2 less games, and stared 1 less. Again this proves my point, you're only looking at YAC as your primary reasoning.
| Season | Team | | Receiving | Rushing | Fumbles |
| G | GS | Rec | Yds | Avg | Lng | TD | Att | Yds | Avg | Lng | TD | FUM | Lost |
| 2011 | New York Giants | 12 | 10 | 39 | 523 | 13.4 | 47T | 4 | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- |
|
| 2010 | New York Giants | 16 | 8 | 60 | 944 | 15.7 | 92T | 9 | 1 | 2 | 2.0 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 1 |
|
| 2009 | New York Giants | 14 | 10 | 57 | 822 | 14.4 | 49 | 5 | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | 1 | 1 |
|
| 2008 | New York Giants | 7 | 0 | 4 | 26 | 6.5 | 11 | 0 | 1 | -12 | -12.0 | -12 | 0 | -- | -- |
|
| TOTAL | 160 | 2,315 | 14.5 | 92 | 18 | 2 | -10 | -5.0 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 2 |
| Season | Team | | Receiving | Rushing | Fumbles |
| G | GS | Rec | Yds | Avg | Lng | TD | Att | Yds | Avg | Lng | TD | FUM | Lost |
| 2011 | Chicago Bears | 14 | 11 | 37 | 727 | 19.6 | 81 | 2 | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | 1 | 1 |
|
| 2010 | Chicago Bears | 16 | 16 | 51 | 960 | 18.8 | 67T | 5 | 1 | 2 | 2.0 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 1 |
|
| 2009 | Chicago Bears | 15 | 0 | 45 | 527 | 11.7 | 68 | 5 | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | 3 | 2 |
|
| TOTAL | 133 | 2,214 | 16.6 | 81 | 12 | 1 | 2 | 2.0 | 2 | 0 | 5 | 4 |
So in 2 less games MM has more catches, less yards and more TD's....ya Knox is just a bad ass compared to him....8o. He's also the #3, and Knox is the #2 on this team; so MM is also not getting all the looks, so what's that really telling you.
Yes knox gets KR/PR but I'd rather my starters NOT be the guy on ST's that everyone is trying to kill. So much like Hester how hester should have never been our #1, I'll take my #2 as the guy not on ST's. You act like MM wouldn't be able to KR/PR, but that's not a provable statement, it's not what he's asked to do w/his team..it's not to say he couldn't if he was asked to.
All those "subjective" things, are what make a WR a WR. You cannot show statistically speaking that RWill has alligator arms, you have to watch it in the games. You cannot statistically say that Benard Berrian is a 1 trick pony, you have to watch the game. And you are only dismissing these arguments b/c you cannot defend Knox on them. Why; b/c everything I said about him is true, and it's been stated during games by the analysts time and again.
LinkBack URL
About LinkBacks
Papa Bear say BEAR DOWN!
Reply With Quote