Is the Bears OL a priority?

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Originally Posted by soulman

Nooooooo, because Jonathan Martin is not even the type of OT Tice likes to have. Tice likes big and strong and Martin is small and a finesse type LT. He's not a fit and as it stands he's ranked lower (in the 20's) than the #19 pick. We shouldn't even have to trade up.

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I have not seen Martin ranked that low, but I am sure some publications have him there. I think the finesse label my be over applied with him, but he is very athletic and smooth in his kick slide.

I understand that what Tice says, but I wonder how much power and say Tice actually has anymore. I know JA defered to him because JA was incompetent when it came to OL talent, but maybe Emery has better ideas.

The problem with not picking up someone who can step in and start for Webb is that we end up catering the offense to protect him and away from maximizing success. I am starting to come to the realization that the success the OL had last season was despite him not because of him.

Adams concerns me because he is just so damn inconsistent.

I would say that it is a much needed upgrade, after further thoughts. As good as Matt Forte ran last year, the ball is still not getting into the end zone as often as it should be. That caused Martz to do some trick plays to make it work. I'm starting to think that if we can get a good OT in FA, then we could get, the best OG in the draft, and allow Chris Williams to go back to being a tackle or challenge Lance Louis or Chris Spencer for RG. We can make due with the class of WRs this year. As bad as it is to admit it, there really weren't many available WR's better than RW last year.

Sorry but I don't get the point your trying to make. If your saying if we don't up grade our O line, and Jay goes down we won't make the SB, you could be right. But if your just saying this to say it I think your way off base. If we have a good back up QB good WRs and a line that can protect the QB there is no reason we don't make it into the play offs, just because Jay goes down. Getting all the way to the SB and winning it that might be a little harder with out Jay but not impossibly

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WindyCity

I have not seen Martin ranked that low, but I am sure some publications have him there. I think the finesse label my be over applied with him, but he is very athletic and smooth in his kick slide.

I understand that what Tice says, but I wonder how much power and say Tice actually has anymore. I know JA defered to him because JA was incompetent when it came to OL talent, but maybe Emery has better ideas.

The problem with not picking up someone who can step in and start for Webb is that we end up catering the offense to protect him and away from maximizing success. I am starting to come to the realization that the success the OL had last season was despite him not because of him.

Adams concerns me because he is just so damn inconsistent.

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Here's scouting report and his ranking among the other OT's. Keep in mind NFP ranks them on the basis of how successful they believe they will be in the NFL, not where they will be drafted. Martin is a perfect example of this. He's not ranked in the top 32 players yet NFP's mock draft has him going at #10 to the Bills.

This has been my major point all along about many of these players. Just because they're projected to be drafted higher doesn't necessarily make them the better prospect. Martin is in their Mock Draft at #10 because many teams will reach for a guy because they need to fill the position. If you look at these rankings they way they were meant to be looked at then what NFP is saying is that Adam and Datko are projected to be better pros but Martin will be drafted before either of them based on the teams needs or maybe the prospect has been overhyped.

I think Mike Tice will have a lot to say about who we draft for the offense. Emery's job is to supply the team with players who fit into the system we run. He may have the final say but that doesn't mean he'll automatically overule Tice or Lovie on a player or a position. I'm sure Tice will have his input into who he can make work and who he can't. Martin may turn out to be a decent pro but as you can see from his scouting report he's not the big, strong, mean aggressive type of lineman Tice prefers. He's also fairly light without an ability to add to his frame. He's a what you see on draft day is what you get guy.

Adams concerns me as well but we don't solve that problem by drafting CWill v2.0 and that's who Martin would remind you of with one exception. CWill is bigger so it was possible to move him into OG. What I see as far as Martin is concerned is he doesn't have the goods to ever play OG and Tice wants OT prospects who could play OG if needed. So Martin isn't a fit.



JONATHAN MARTIN OT, Stanford

• 2011 GRADE: 6.6 D B J HT: 6-6 WT: 304
• Overview

Jan 17



What I like…

- Possesses an athletic looking frame with solid length for the position.
- Showcases natural bend and flexibility when asked to sit into his stance.
- Can keep his base under him and knees bend initially on his kick slide.
- Does a nice job initially maintaining proper balance with his footwork when trying to reach speed off the edge and set.
- Showcases natural range to the corner. Exhibits a good first step and the ability to reach quick-twitch pass rushers.
- Looks natural when asked to quick set. Keeps his base down, hands up and demonstrates natural foot quickness and change of direction skills when asked to mirror in space.
- Exhibits the body control and recovery ability needed to quickly collect himself through contact after he gets overwhelmed at the point.
- Possesses the kind of natural bend and length to gain leverage vs. the bull rush.
- Displayed more of a mean streak to his game in 2011, doing a better job staying engaged and finishing blocks in the run game.
- Works hard through contact to try to create an eventual push as an angle guy.
- Does a nice job staying low off the ball when asked to get around on reach blocks and seal. Doesn't waste much motion and can get around opposing linemen quickly.
- Exhibits good short area quickness when working in tandem on a combination block and then quickly reaching a defender off his frame at the second level.
- Has experience getting around the edge and pulling into the second level. Exhibits average range in space.
- Understands angles well in the run game. Is coordinated, gets his feet around when looking to set the edge and can seal.
- Has anchored the Stanford offensive line the past three years and handled the pressure well of protecting the blindside QB Andrew Luck during that time.

What I don't like…

- Isn't a real physical kid and doesn't possess the natural girth through the base/hips to get that much stronger in the lower half.
- Tends to pop upright into contact and doesn't stay real compact with his footwork.
- Isn't a natural puncher, struggled to uncoil a quick, strong jab and gain inside leverage.
- Isn't real heavy handed through contact and has a tough time sticking once he gets his hands on defenders. Too often his hands are outside the defenders chest plate.
- Will get overextended into his punch and stop moving his feet, allowing quicker pass rusher to slip him on contact and work the edge.
- Has a tendency to give up a soft corner in pass protection too often because of lacking explosive/power elements to his game.
- Possesses solid recovery ability (not great), but lacks the type of natural power to consistently stick to defenders once they gain a step and simply push them past the play.
- Has a tendency to get upright as an angle blocker in the run game as well and has a tough time gaining leverage.
- Lacks ideal natural power on contact, works hard and eventually can begin to get a push. However, will struggle with balance and ends up on the ground too often as an in-line guy.
- Doesn't display the type of "plus" range and body control his frame would indicate when asked to block in space.

Impression: He's got the NFL size, length and overall athletic skill set. However, he's not a natural anchor player and doesn't strike me as a guy who is ever going to be real physical at the next level. He can mirror in space, but struggles to stick through contact and isn't real heavy handed. Looks like a finesse tackle who will get over drafted because of athletic talent, but is going to have a hard time keeping the edge clean at the next level.

01	http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c191...atic/MDhot.png	Matt Kalil	OT	6-7	295	Southern California	8.0 B J
02	http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c191...atic/MDhot.png	Mike Adams	OT	6-8	320	Ohio State	7.0 C
03	http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c191...atic/MDnot.png	Riley Reiff	OT	6-6	300	Iowa	6.9 D J
04		Andrew Datko	OT	6-6	321	Florida State	6.8 B X
05	http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c191...atic/MDhot.png	Jonathan Martin	OT	6-6	304	Stanford	6.6

http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c191...aft_small3.png

1	IND	Andrew Luck	QB	Stanford
2	WAS	Robert Griffin III	QB	Baylor
3	MIN	Matt Kalil	OT	Southern California
4	CLE	Justin Blackmon	WR	Oklahoma State
5	TB	Morris Claiborne	CB	Louisiana State
6	STL	Michael Brockers	DT	Louisiana State
7	JAX	Dre Kirkpatrick	CB	Alabama
8	CAR	Devon Still	DT	Penn State
9	MIA	Riley Reiff	OT	Iowa
10	BUF	Jonathan Martin	OT	Stanford
11	KC	David DeCastro	OG	Stanford	http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c191...atic/MDhot.png
12	SEA	Quinton Coples	DE	North Carolina
13	ARI	Nick Perry	OLB	Southern California	http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c191...atic/MDnot.png
14	DAL	Peter Konz	C	Wisconsin
15	PHI	Luke Kuechly	ILB	Boston College
16	NYJ	Melvin Ingram	OLB	South Carolina
17	CIN	Trent Richardson	RB	Alabama
18	SD	Dont'a Hightower	ILB	Alabama
19	CHI	Mike Adams	OT	Ohio State
20	TEN	Stephon Gilmore	CB	South Carolina
21	CIN	Janoris Jenkins	CB	North Alabama	http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c191...atic/MDhot.png
22	CLE	Ryan Tannehill	QB	Texas A&M
23	DET	Cordy Glenn	OG	Georgia	http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c191...atic/MDhot.png
24	PIT	Kelechi Osemele	OG	Iowa State	http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c191...atic/MDhot.png
25	DEN	Orson Charles	TE	Georgia
26	HOU	Michael Floyd	WR	Notre Dame
27	GB	Courtney Upshaw	OLB	Alabama
28	NE	Mark Barron	SS	Alabama
29	BAL	Vontaze Burfict	ILB	Arizona State
30	NYG	Kendall Wright	WR	Baylor	http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c191...atic/MDhot.png
31	NE	Zach Brown	OLB	North Carolina	http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c191...atic/MDhot.png
32	SF	Whitney Mercilus	DE	Illinois	http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c191...atic/MDnot.png

Just thought I'd add one more thing. From what I can see it's likely that only two lineman who fit Tice's profile will still be on the board at #19 and even that isn't a for sure. Those two are Michael Adams and Cordy Glenn. If Glenn can play OT in addition to OG, and some draft sites are now listing him that way, then maybe they do grab him.

If he can play LT all the better and if not then it would depend on whether or not Tice would play him at LG and move CWill back to OT or play Glenn at RT and shift Carimi over to LT. I don't say either of those moves are all that likely to happen but if Glenn is, in the Bears opinion, the best stud in the corral they have to at least think about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WindyCity

Would you guys think about trading 1[19] and 2[50] to Buffalo for 1[10] so we can draft Jonathan Martin and get a franchise LT?

Or

Would you trade 1[19] and 3[74] to the Cardinals for 1[13] and draft Jonathan Martin to be the franchise LT?

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Last year was a good example of how prospect slots can move up and down, especially with O-Linemen, particularly Tackles. At this time last year, few would have guessed that Carimi would have dropped all the way to us. I would NOT give up any other picks for Adams or Martin (I hate that term of "finesse" when describing OT's), but if those two somehow slide in front of Reiff as some projections appear to be showing signs of that trend, then I would trade our 1st and one of our thirds to move up in the early teens for Reiff. Will he drop far enough for us to pull such a trade? At this point, it looks doubtful, but as I said, it's not unheard of.

Damn it, that last meaningless win vs. Minnesota really screwed us.

I don't want any guards in the first round because we don't need any. Cordy Glenn would at best serve as a RT, and I just don't trust Tice with putting Carimi over at LT to save my life. It takes a special player with special talents to play the LT position, and Carimi has it. I think he can be a Pro Bowler even at that position if he were to stay healthy enough of the time. Time will tell, but it's looking more and more like, pre-Combine wise, we're probably going to take someone like Mike Adams.

For one I totally agree someone OTHER than Webb should be LT, this is a fact. But putting a rookie in there your going to get the same type of masking/chipping help plus the rookie is going to be targeted more than usual. It's going to take a vet or a indirect move (i.e. DeCastro at LG someone else at LT) to mitigate the situation.

You re-draft the LT position your still tactically behind. Your behind in material of draft choices for other urgent positions, ability to maximize the offense due to the help you must give to cover, and the continuity of the line.

I believe the best (or most practical) idea is to put Carimi at LT and Webb back at RT. Providing Carimi is healthy you have a outland trophy winner out there who is technically light years better than Webb there and Tice does not lose face as Webb moves back to a position he better maintained-RT.

I agree with what you are saying and to add to that why would we keep using someone we have use our TEs to back up on every pass play. I don't think its just Emery but McCaskey is also looking to build the Offense. More changed this year then just the GM and OC the Bears have a new man in charge. And I think that is why we will see a much bigger push to improve the Offense then we have ever seen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WindyCity

I have not seen Martin ranked that low, but I am sure some publications have him there. I think the finesse label my be over applied with him, but he is very athletic and smooth in his kick slide.

I understand that what Tice says, but I wonder how much power and say Tice actually has anymore. I know JA defered to him because JA was incompetent when it came to OL talent, but maybe Emery has better ideas.

The problem with not picking up someone who can step in and start for Webb is that we end up catering the offense to protect him and away from maximizing success. I am starting to come to the realization that the success the OL had last season was despite him not because of him.

Adams concerns me because he is just so damn inconsistent.

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We all agree that we need another LT other than Web. What we don't agree in how to get that guy. Since there's a good chance that both a LT and DE will still be on the board when we pick we debate which is the more important of the two or is it a WR we need to draft.

I believe we can fill two of three spots by signing guys who are FA of have been released. I've read that it's possible that the Cards with let Levi Brown go rather than to pay him a hefty bonus he has coming. He's been somewhat of a disappointment since the Cards drafted him with their first pick in the 2007 draft and he has been playing LT for the last two years. At the very least he's competition fow Webb and insurance that we don't have to keep OMG.

• Levi Brown is not out of his contract, but chances are he will be on the open market. And chances are he will have a number of interested suitors. In fact, Brown could be the best offensive tackle on the market. The fifth pick of the 2007 draft had been a disappointment earlier in his career, but he played pretty well for the Cardinals in 2011 and is drawing interest from other teams who are anticipating Brown shaking free. The Cardinals owe Brown a $6 million bonus next month, and his salary for 2012, the last year of his rookie deal, is $14.5 million. So far, the Cardinals have not attempted to restructure or extend Brown’s contract.

http://prod.static.cardinals.clubs.n.../BrownLevi.jpg
Height:6-6Weight:324Age:27College:Penn StateExperience:5 Quick Stats (2011):

G16 GS16

TOTAL		77	75
2011	ARI	16	16
2010	ARI	16	16
2009	ARI	16	16
2008	ARI	16	16
2007	ARI	13	11

17	SEA	W 23-20
16	@CIN	L 16-23
15	CLE	W 20-17
14	SF	W 21-19
13	DAL	W 19-13
12	@STL	W 23-20
11	@SF	L 7-23
10	@PHI	W 21-17
9	STL	W 19-13
8	@BAL	L 27-30
7	PIT	L 20-32
5	@MIN	L 10-34
4	NYG	L 27-31
3	@SEA	L 10-13
2	@WAS	L 21-22
1	CAR	W 28-21

Biography


Pro Career:
The Cardinals first pick in the 2007 NFL Draft (5^th overall), Brown started 43 of 45 games he appeared in at right tackle during his first three seasons, including all 38 games during the 2008 and 2009 regular season and postseason. Made the switch to left tackle in 2010.


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