Thread: Is the Bears OL a priority?

Originally Posted by 4DaBERS

If we do go DE in the first, I would have to say that I believe Mercilus would be our best choice. Yea, I am an Illini fan, but I am a far bigger Bear fan, and I will not pick a guy from Illinois, just because he's from Illinois. In fact, I may steer clear of him JUST BECAUSE he's from Illinois. However, I think Mercilus is the real deal and the best option as a 4-3 DE. DE still isn't my first choice, but if that's the direction they go then he's my guy.

There are little subtle things wrong with every single DE candidate for the Bears to draft in the first round; it's almost maddening. Coples has an issue with putting forth effort at all times. Ingram is considered to be small for a DE and people draw comparisons more with James Harrison, who is a 3-4 five-technique OLB. With Ingram, I wouldn't have a problem with picking him since his speed is top-tier for the position he plays, and he did play in the top conference in America in terms of producing stalwart defensive players (SEC). I think Upshaw is a lighter version of Ingram, but he actually did play in a 3-4 defensive alignment down at Bama. And then there is Mercilus. You know, so many people commented on Nick Fairley last season as being a risky draft pick because he mainly had one good year as a three-technique defensive tackle, but what a year it was! Mercilus, from what I've heard and read, has only had one outstanding season playing defensive end for the Fighting Illini like Fairley, and like Fairley, that one season was just outstanding. I would venture to say that had Mercilus produced one more great season, he would be a top ten draft pick.

That's not to say that I would necessarily risk all of my chips on Mercilus. Sure, he probably has the goods to be a solid DE, probably similar in scope to Cliff Avril when and if he finally develops. I have to say that, being a man who comes from SEC country and who knows how dominant SEC defenses tend to have been over the past twenty years since Alabama won the national championship in 1992, we have the best skill position players in the entire country when it comes to defense, bar none. I can guarantee you that what you would get out of either Ingram or Upshaw would be a superior performance as they will have come from programs where there was excellent coaching (Remember, Steve Spurrier won six SEC titles and a national championship in 1996 as head coach at Florida and has now produced a couple of top 15 teams at South Carolina now for the past two seasons) and great talent evaluation. In Nick Saban, you have the best coach in college football without a doubt in my mind. He has won national championships at LSU ('03) and now at Bama ('09, '11) by recruiting some of the best talent in all of college football, and then taking that talent and developing it into a cadre of special players who have gone on to have some success at the pro level. I fully expect that sometime, Rolando McClain will make something of himself, and I also expect for Mark Ingram to make a name for himself with the New Orleans Saints.

But for my money, whenever it comes to choosing between apples and oranges in terms of defensive players from the SEC, the Big Ten, the Big XII, the Pac XII, the ACC, and the Big East, give me someone from one of those big SEC programs anytime. I know what I'm talking about. The best players, the best athletes who play defense, come from down here in Dixieland.

Dags, you gotta shake that Ingram being like James Harrison thing. Ingram is over 35 lbs heavier and 2" taller than James Harrison. They aren't similar physically at all. I'm certain they'll put Ingram through drills at both spots at the Combine and more likely than not he'll rate higher at one than the other.

We know Upshaw struggled playing from a 3 point stance at the Senior Bowl so more likely than not he'll be seen as a LB. Nick Perry is much closer in size to Harrison but so far he's being pegged as a Clay Mattews type rushbacker. You're right about Coples. There are concerns about his motor but we also hears that about Pep before he got here. Coples has a tremendous upside and I doubt you see him out of the top ten. That pretty much leaves Ingram next in line and Todd McShay has him at DE and as the best pure pass rusher in the draft. NFP moved him to the number one ranked OLB. No matter where he plays somebody is gonna get a good football player and I wouldn't mind at all if it was us.

Originally Posted by WindyCity

Dagan this is an excellent point and people who think that this DE class is a safe group are realy misguided.

There are serious concerns about every single player in the top of the group that need to be answered. The fact remains that of the top 6-7 DEs in this draft I cannot really distiniguish between them. It seems to me that there is a ton of late 1st round DE talent.

Melvin Ingram
Quentin Coples
Courtney Upshaw
Whitney Mercilus
Nick Perry
Vinny Curry
Chandler Jones

I really cannot tell you who the best player in that group is and I cannot say that any are really safe solid 1st round picks.

I really like Vinny Curry and he is a 2nd round guy.

Thanks for the kudos, Windy. Coming from you, that is a high compliment. I don't always know a lot about draft prospects for the NFL, but I do try to chime in when I can, and I learn a lot from reading what you, sox, soulman, and other people contribute.

Now, back on topic. It is precisely this reason that I wrote about and with which you concurred that I do not believe going after a DE in the first round is a very smart idea. There are just so many variables to think about, and let's face it: it's not as if this draft is filled to the brim with "can't miss" players past the the top four in the first round. Sure, there are going to be some gems and diamonds in the rough sprinkled around every now and then, but I think the defensive end class this year is an "enter at your own risk" situation. Past Ingram and Upshaw, I wouldn't go for any other player simply because most players in the draft didn't play against elite level competition that the defenders in the SEC saw. In the Big XII, Pac XII, Big Ten, etc., defenses were mostly very vanilla and particularly in the the first two conferences I just mentioned, there was very little defense played at all. The BCS National Championship Game, which pitted two teams from the SEC with stout defenses, didn't even see a touchdown scored until it was late in the fourth quarter and the game was by then already decided. So, if we have to go after a player in the first round who is a defensive end, I would go for either Ingram or Upshaw, but there again, the issue with size springs forth when they have to go up against large offensive tackles with better footwork, better hand positioning, and just all around better technique than what they saw in college.

Originally Posted by WindyCity

Dagan this is an excellent point and people who think that this DE class is a safe group are realy misguided.

There are serious concerns about every single player in the top of the group that need to be answered. The fact remains that of the top 6-7 DEs in this draft I cannot really distiniguish between them. It seems to me that there is a ton of late 1st round DE talent.

Melvin Ingram
Quentin Coples
Courtney Upshaw
Whitney Mercilus
Nick Perry
Vinny Curry
Chandler Jones

I really cannot tell you who the best player in that group is and I cannot say that any are really safe solid 1st round picks.

I really like Vinny Curry and he is a 2nd round guy.

Don't forget to add Andre Branch out of Clemson to that list as well. For a 4-3 Defense, I think he looks better than about half the list Windy has provided here. I pretty much agree with Windy and Dagan that it's hard as hell to pick out the right guy from this group as they all deviate from the perfect picture a bit. However, I also agree with you soul, in that I also think 19 is a reach for Mercilus, unfortunately, I also think it's a reach for everyone but maybe Coples. However, I disagree a bit with soul in that I think some of these other guys need to show more in the combine than Mercilus. As long as we are still running a 4-3, I think Mercilus is still the 2nd best DE we can find, but he IS a reach at #19. If that's the direction they want to go and they can trade down to 28-32 and still get him while picking up another selection at the end of the second or 3rd, then go for it. If it was me, I still think there are some future pro-bowl players on the O-Line that will be there at 19, whether its a need like LT or just a BPA at G or C that allows us to get better on the O-line in it's aggregate, then I do that. Sorry, I've got a soft spot for the "big uglies" and what they mean for a team, I always have and I always will.

The four offensive tackles (five if you count Glenn, as NFL Network is doing) present us with an opportunity to do something this team hasn't done since the 1980s, and that's to secure this offensive line once and for all. I understand that Tice has a vested interest in developing Webb into a solid LT, I really do, but in two years of play, he's given up more sacks than just about any OT in the NFL when you combine what he did at RT and LT. As his backup, we have OMG, and he's actually ten times worse than Webb. We have got to address this issue because letting it fester for another year will continue to hinder Jay Cutler's abilities to properly execute the offense; in other words, having all the great wide receivers in the world won't do us jackshit if he doesn't have time to throw the ball to him. There are so many holes on this team and yet somehow when everyone's healthy, they come together and are among the best teams in the NFC. Imagine what a little elbow grease from the front office would do for us!

Originally Posted by WindyCity

Dagan this is an excellent point and people who think that this DE class is a safe group are realy misguided.

There are serious concerns about every single player in the top of the group that need to be answered. The fact remains that of the top 6-7 DEs in this draft I cannot really distiniguish between them. It seems to me that there is a ton of late 1st round DE talent.

Melvin Ingram
Quentin Coples
Courtney Upshaw
Whitney Mercilus
Nick Perry
Vinny Curry
Chandler Jones

I really cannot tell you who the best player in that group is and I cannot say that any are really safe solid 1st round picks.

I really like Vinny Curry and he is a 2nd round guy.

I'll say this once again. Where did anyone get the idea that Ingram was small? He's 6'2" and 270-275 lbs which makes him about the same size as Osi Umenyiora or Cliff Avril and Harrison is only 6' 240 lbs. It's not even close and what makes a pass rusher too small. Robert Mathis only goes 245-250 lbs. Ingram is ranked by some as the top pure pass rusher in the draft. If Coples had Ingram's motor he'd be a top 5 pick and as it id he'll still go high based on his potential.

Ingram is being looked at as both a 3-4 OLB and a DE mainly because do many teams are playing a 3-4 and it improves his chances of going earlier. If he's sitting there and a team in front of the Bears wants him he probably drops some weight and becomes an OLB. If the Bears or another 4-3 teams takes him he plays at his present weight and becomes a DE.

If Upshaw and/or Perry could play DE they'd be in the mix as well but there's more likelihood a 3-4 team would draft them that Ingram. All four of these guys are solid first round picks and all four can bring heat in the pass rush so depending on who drafts them all but may be looked at as either a DE or a LB including Coples. The distinction between a 4-3 DE and a 3-4 LB blurs a bit and some guys have the skills for both positions.

There are good DE prospects in the second tier but many don't grade out as good as pass rushers as the first tier guys but that's not to say they may not be with some coaching and we've got one of the best Dline coaches in the game in Marinelli. There's decent 2nd round depth at DE just as there is at WR and CB and OG so we should be able to help ourselves in any number of ways and so much of it will depend on what happens in FA.

The number of elite prospects might be less than in other drafts but there is a lot of quality depth at a number of positions.

Originally Posted by WindyCity

This is not an elite draft, it is a solid and deep draft in my opinion.

The problem with Ingram is that he has 30" arms, which are tiny and will make it hard to keep tackles wuith 35" arms away from his body.

I like Ingram and would take him at 19, but he is far from the ideal DE physically.


If you out Ingrams' technique and moves with Coples body you would have a MONSTER, and you could call him Julius.

Yes I agree, this draft isn't stocked to the gills with elite players but the overall quality and depth at certain positions is excellent. Now let's get down to what I don't agree with.

Windy you and I have been over this short arm thing before just as I've been over the thing about comparing Ingram to James Harrison with Dags. I'm wondering it either of you take the time to read my response and if you did how both of you can continue to post the same misinformation. Where did you get it from anyway? If you and Dags researched him neither of you could possibly make the claims you do.

Please read the how a grade 7.0 player is expected to perform in the NFL. Then read the first paragraph in his scouting report, specifically the part out highlighted in red. Don't you think if he had 30" arms NFP would report that instead of just the opposite and don't you think that would also downgrade him somewhere below a 7.0 since he couldn't ever grow longer arms and that would always be a weakness. Yet they say he has no obvious weakness.

On three separate occasions the scouting report talks about extending his arm or using his long arms to gain leverage. So exactly how does that add up to 30" alligator arms. Hell Windy, even my arms are longer than 30" and I have relatively short arms. Melvin Ingram is a viable pick at #19. Only Coples ranks higher and in his case his lackadaisical play sometimes concerns teams but based on his upside he'll still be a top ten pick and Ingram won't be all that far behind him. If your only reason for not selecting him at #19 is based on non-existent short arms then I allayed your fears haven't I? A lot of people think he's the best pass rusher in the draft.


MELVIN INGRAM OLB, South Carolina

• 2011 GRADE: 7.0 HT: 6-2 WT: 276
  
  7.0 Becomes a starter during his rookie year… Becomes a solid NFL player who has no real weakness… Can’t be exploited or consistently taken out of games.
  

Jan 31

A shorter compact defender with a long set of arms, an explosive pop into contact and the know-how to get after the quarterback in a number of ways. He plays fast in tight quarters and possesses an impressive pass-rushing repertoire. However, he has only average bend sitting into his stance and coiling up, is a bit leggy and doesn't eat up a ton of grass initially off the snap. Despite that, he has the kind of first step burst to at least threaten the corner. He's at his best using his sudden lateral quickness to counter off his speed rush at full speed, extending his arms with a compact club or arm over to get inside on blockers. Ingram is very quick laterally in tight areas, does a nice job dropping his pad level when he feels the edge and has the lower body strength to power through contact. Also, he does a nice job playing with leverage as a pass rusher, extending his arms well into contact, catching blockers off balance and overwhelming blockers with the bull rush. He will line up inside as well and threaten as a one-gap guy. He has a tendency to get upright once he gains a step, but does a nice job slow-playing his rush off the snap and forcing his way up the field.

He does a nice job shedding blocks on the edge in the run game. He'll roll his hips into blocks at times when trying to anchor and at times is slow getting off the football. Awareness is a concern that kept popping up, however, he only started one game and that should improve with more experience. He can be jolted backward on initial contact, but he's so sudden and uses his long arms well to gain leverage on contact. He is violent when asked to shed and can consistently disengage and work his way toward the football. Ingram plays off blocks well on the outside and possesses good range chasing the ball in pursuit with a solid motor. He plays with natural leverage and should be able to mature into a very solid run defender if he gives more attention to technique off the snap.

Impression: He is an impressive pass rusher who can get after the QB in a number of ways. Ingram is raw with his technique and can get better, but his suddenness, length and natural feel for the game makes me think he's one of the draft best senior pass rushers.