Webb, and overall LT position official thread

**short faced bear** · 04-21-2012, 11:26 AM

I think I'll go with the old adage "what will you accept as proof/disproof":

First, I do want Webb to get better. What I will accept as evidence is improving his football IQ, getting to the second level, and his hand placement.

What I won't accept as proof is masking by rolling pockets, chip help, and scheming to mitigate his mistakes

What I'll accept as proof it isn't working is decline or stagnation of the above

Again it isn't about a nebulous concept of "trust" it's SKILL DEVELOPMENT

Here's to Webb improving.

**Grizzblue** · 04-21-2012, 11:56 AM

He may win the job but should be pushed not have it handed to him

Please Emery give us/Carimi Kevin Zeilter

**MPBears68** · 04-21-2012, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by short faced bear

I think I'll go with the old adage "what will you accept as proof/disproof":

First, I do want Webb to get better. What I will accept as evidence is improving his football IQ, getting to the second level, and his hand placement.

What I won't accept as proof is masking by rolling pockets, chip help, and scheming to mitigate his mistakes

What I'll accept as proof it isn't working is decline or stagnation of the above

Again it isn't about a nebulous concept of "trust" it's SKILL DEVELOPMENT

Here's to Webb improving.

There seems to be 3 schools of thought about Webb on this board:

A) "Webb sucks, he's a lost cause, move on anyway you can."

B) "Webb is going to be much, much better this year and Tice's faith in him will be vindicated."

C) "Webb was playing the hardest position on the OL for the first time last year w/o the benefit of a full offseason or even a stable OL corps due to injuries. His play also suffered due to Martz's crazy playcalling and the lack of a true #1WR to throw to. I have concerns but remain cautiously optimistic for 2012."

SFB, I gather you are in category "C" as I am at this point. There really isn't much alternative anyway as we didn't sign a FA and Tice has all but said that we aren't drafting an OT high unless "by some miracle the ideal guy falls into our laps" (or something like that). I interpret that to mean Kalil, who has about 0.01% chance of falling to/near #19.

I do think that Webb shouldn't just be handed the starting job w/o having to at least work for it in TC/PS. That's why I strongly hope that Tice works CW and maybe Carimi too at LT this summer and makes Webb compete and earn it. I do believe that guy has pretty good athletic skills and can win the job legitimately if he gets the mental/intellectual part of the position down better and stops looking like he's "lost" all game out there like he did several times last year. At the very least, we need a backup OT...be it CW or a latter draft pick (or both). jmo

**MPBears68** · 04-21-2012, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Grizzblue

He may win the job but should be pushed not have it handed to him

Please Emery give us/Carimi Kevin Zeilter

LOL, that's my "compromise position" too, Grizz. Besides, we need to keep adding young new talent to the OL regardless, even if Webb greatly improves and holds down LT. I doubt we are going to retain all 3 of our FA OLs next year (Louis, CW, and Spencer) and Garza has maybe 2 decent years only left in the tank. So, unless Tice sees Spencer as our "OC of the future", drafting and grooming a guy who can play OG now and maybe move to OC in a year or two (Konz being the obvious one) seems like a wise and proactive strategy if the right player(s) is available.

**Grizzblue** · 04-21-2012, 01:23 PM

Ive always wanted konz and wouldnt mind a trade down for him

**motownbear** · 04-21-2012, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by short faced bear

I think I'll go with the old adage "what will you accept as proof/disproof":

First, I do want Webb to get better. What I will accept as evidence is improving his football IQ, getting to the second level, and his hand placement.

What I won't accept as proof is masking by rolling pockets, chip help, and scheming to mitigate his mistakes

What I'll accept as proof it isn't working is decline or stagnation of the above

Again it isn't about a nebulous concept of "trust" it's SKILL DEVELOPMENT

Here's to Webb improving.

how hard could it be to improve from the worse OT two years in a row lmfao.

I swear if his name was Omyale everyone would want him cut.

**bearsinhouston** · 04-21-2012, 03:28 PM

I've been listening to the Bears talk about the OL now for a while. My memory may be off, but I think it has been since Tice has been here that the company line has been that they are happy with the OL. This isn't a knock on Tice - I like the guy, but just trying to figure out what the hell is going on....

Now to mitigate this, Lovie is a big one to say he is happy with guys that makes you wonder if he is watching the same guys (WR for instance). So I don't know if Tice is picking up the theme some from his HC or whether it is him saying that. I tend to think that both have this tendency since I don't recall Marinelli doing much of that.

Going back to when Angelo was here, Tice (and Lovie) were saying that they were happy with the OL, while Lovie was saying he was happy with the WRs. Angelo never went out and got any top notch WR or OL free agents (although they did draft Carimi), it may not be a smoke screen and they were genuinely happy with those positions.

If that is the case (kind of a big if), then Tice may really be happy with the OL. Emery came in and decided that he didn't like the WR situation and did something about it. I guess where I'm going with this is that Tice may really believe that the OL is ok. It will definitely be better with a new scheme, but I see nothing dominant about the line regardless. Maybe serviceable would be more accurate (IMO). So the draft will tell us if Emery agrees with Tice. If Emery agrees and does nothing with the line then you have Emery and Tice on the same page and I'll feel better about what we have. Emery has shown that regardless of what is said or believed, he is prepared to strengthen a position of that he believes to be weak.

I'm going to wait to see what happens at the draft. If they don't address the OL in the forst three rounds, they really think it is ok and I'm going to see what happens with a year in the system and a preseason and a new scheme. If they go with an OL early, (to me that would indicate Emery sees a position of need), I would hope to see a first or second round pick. At this point, although I think the OL is a huge need, I think DE is even greater. We are at least going to have a new scheme for the OL. The DL is not going to do anything to get additional pressure unless they get a stud DE in house.

**4DaBERS** · 04-21-2012, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by BigBadPapaBear

Webb has all the tools to be a very good LT. I think most Bears fans are going to feel dumb when they see how much he improves this year. A lot of our younger players are going to look good this year with all the experience they gained last year. When its all said and done, we'll be swinging from Tice's nuts after seeing the finished product.

1. As I said in another thread, I will be more than happy to eat crow for an entire season if Webb turns the corner and even becomes an "adequate" LT, or hell, even RT. However, I sure as hell wont feel "dumb", because I have been right on the subject for two years now. Those of us that have doubted his ability to succeed are NOT doing so because we have some hatred of the kid, hell we don't even know him; and it's not because he was a late round draft pick, there have been several good to even great players in this league that were not even drafted. We doubt his ability because what we see does not match up with what is being sold to us. SO, I will NOT feel dumb, I will feel happy because my team finally got something out of the kid. I gave him 2010, even though he was absolutely terrible, because he was a rookie that was thrown in the fire. But to then throw the kid over to LT was just not very responsible in my opinion. So what if it was a Martz offense? Did Tice not know that it was a Martz offense, yet they put him there still.

2. Webb DOES NOT have all the tools. As someone told me the other day on this board "I'm not trying to be a dick, but I disagree". He does not have the mental tools to be able to understand or at least adjust quickly enough for last second line calls. Now, I don't know this for a fact, I am just looking at his performance as he often hesitates too much and sometimes looks lost. He is not NEARLY as good at run blocking as everyone suggests that he is, and his physical tools are not even what people claim they are. His footwork is OK, and perhaps even considered "acceptable", but he doesn't really have good balance. He is not as fast as we need, likely because of his size that everyone thinks is great. In fact, the only "tools" that I see ARE his physical attributes of size, long arms, etc. However, how many guys have those same tools that never even make it to the league, or when they do, they are simply bad. Does anyone remember Tony Mandarich? He is just the most shining example (another guy that was too slow mentally), but there have been far, far more, many of whom we have never even heard of. If it weren't for Mike Tice and the Chicago Bears, J'Marcus Webb would likely be one of those names.

3. I do not blame Webb for any of this. By all accounts, he is a good kid and he is likely giving the Bears everything he has to offer. If anyone is to blame, it's Mike Tice first and foremost for falling in love with this kid when he went to Texas to scout him and believing too highly in himself to be able to coach him up more than he has been able to thus far, Lovie for going along with it up the ladder to Angelo, and Angelo for just going along for the ride and picking him, but more so, the coaches for continuing to grade him too highly and not looking to replace him.

4. In conclusion, whenever I am critical of the Bears players in contrast with some of my fan brothers, I always hope that they are right and I am wrong. After all, it is for the good of our favorite team. I hope that I am wrong here as well and that some of you can come back 9 months from now and rub it in my face. I will gladly accept it. I agree with the whole concept that the young guys were hurt the most last year (Lockout) by not having an off season, and I even agree that we will see some guys really turn around. I just don't think Webb will be one of those guys and I think what we've seen from him is about as good as we're going to get. Again, I hope I'm wrong.

**Bipolar Bear** · 04-21-2012, 06:04 PM

I still dislike Webb very much, but I'm resigned to the fact that he'll be the Bears starting LT. Hopefully this is a make or break season for him, but I still can't understand how there hasn't been any competition brought in for him. He's done nothing to deserve being locked in as a starter on this patchwork OL.

**BigBadPapaBear** · 04-21-2012, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by 4DaBERS

1. As I said in another thread, I will be more than happy to eat crow for an entire season if Webb turns the corner and even becomes an "adequate" LT, or hell, even RT. However, I sure as hell wont feel "dumb", because I have been right on the subject for two years now. Those of us that have doubted his ability to succeed are NOT doing so because we have some hatred of the kid, hell we don't even know him; and it's not because he was a late round draft pick, there have been several good to even great players in this league that were not even drafted. We doubt his ability because what we see does not match up with what is being sold to us. SO, I will NOT feel dumb, I will feel happy because my team finally got something out of the kid. I gave him 2010, even though he was absolutely terrible, because he was a rookie that was thrown in the fire. But to then throw the kid over to LT was just not very responsible in my opinion. So what if it was a Martz offense? Did Tice not know that it was a Martz offense, yet they put him there still.

2. Webb DOES NOT have all the tools. As someone told me the other day on this board "I'm not trying to be a dick, but I disagree". He does not have the mental tools to be able to understand or at least adjust quickly enough for last second line calls. Now, I don't know this for a fact, I am just looking at his performance as he often hesitates too much and sometimes looks lost. He is not NEARLY as good at run blocking as everyone suggests that he is, and his physical tools are not even what people claim they are. His footwork is OK, and perhaps even considered "acceptable", but he doesn't really have good balance. He is not as fast as we need, likely because of his size that everyone thinks is great. In fact, the only "tools" that I see ARE his physical attributes of size, long arms, etc. However, how many guys have those same tools that never even make it to the league, or when they do, they are simply bad. Does anyone remember Tony Mandarich? He is just the most shining example (another guy that was too slow mentally), but there have been far, far more, many of whom we have never even heard of. If it weren't for Mike Tice and the Chicago Bears, J'Marcus Webb would likely be one of those names.

3. I do not blame Webb for any of this. By all accounts, he is a good kid and he is likely giving the Bears everything he has to offer. If anyone is to blame, it's Mike Tice first and foremost for falling in love with this kid when he went to Texas to scout him and believing too highly in himself to be able to coach him up more than he has been able to thus far, Lovie for going along with it up the ladder to Angelo, and Angelo for just going along for the ride and picking him, but more so, the coaches for continuing to grade him too highly and not looking to replace him.

4. In conclusion, whenever I am critical of the Bears players in contrast with some of my fan brothers, I always hope that they are right and I am wrong. After all, it is for the good of our favorite team. I hope that I am wrong here as well and that some of you can come back 9 months from now and rub it in my face. I will gladly accept it. I agree with the whole concept that the young guys were hurt the most last year (Lockout) by not having an off season, and I even agree that we will see some guys really turn around. I just don't think Webb will be one of those guys and I think what we've seen from him is about as good as we're going to get. Again, I hope I'm wrong.

If Webb didn't have all the tools to be a very good LT then they would not have even bothered to put him over there. In fact, if they felt he couldn't play over there then they should have moved up in last year's draft and drafted Nate Solder to play LT.

This is not some game that Tice and the Bears are playing here. That's arguably the most critical spot on the O-line. You don't need an All Pro at LT. You just need a guy that can give you solid play. Look around the NFL and you'll see that there is only a handful of teams that have a dominant LT. Its a fact. And the way people talk about Webb, they make it sound like every other play he's allowing a sack or missing a block. Given it was his 1st year at LT, blocking under Martz's scheme, he did better than people are willing to admit. Webb is a tremendous physical specimen and for a guy his size, he can move very well. I see him developing into a James "Big Cat" Williams type of player.

On another note, I love Cutler...but Cutler also better learn to get the ball out a little quicker.

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