Tice, Smith, Emery -- who gets the blame for this tackle mess?

**soulman** · 08-14-2012, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by JustAnotherBearsFan99

Yes. But this is how they make a living

(Wish the Trib would pay me to write these counter rants or maybe a TV spot. Point/Counterpoint like Dan Akroyd and Jane Curtin used to do on SNL but with Soul and Rosie. (Steve you whiny, effete, ignorant, supercilious bastard.)

There's good money in being an insulter.

We see 1 pre-season game and now we are supposed to cut our wrists and get the pitchforks and torches for Emery and the coaching staff. You gotta love journalists (and clueless fans too for that matter). Why not sit back, watch the pre-season unfold, and then if we have these problems during the "real" season, then yes. Panic.

Until then I'm just not going to jump off the ledge. Pre-season is just that, a time before the "real" season where teams get their players and act together. Players are not in mid-season form yet.

Maybe Rosenbloom didn't get the memo. (Email him my post, LOL)

Yep. Like I said before somehow we survived with that line last year well enough to have been headed for the playoffs until Cutler went down and the line had nothing to do with that. They'll figure out ways top get by for now but next winter this problem needs to be fixed for good or at least be well on it's way to it.

**bearsinhouston** · 08-14-2012, 08:08 PM

Soul - there are several perspectives on any issue, and I do disagree on some of your views on this. Obviously, I am not saying I am right and you are wrong, but I do disagree.

This is not Tices first year with Webb. And Tice is supposedly at the pinnacle level of coaching. An NFL coach that has been a HC. In other words, he should be able to evaluate what he has. Being as he has been with Webb for a while, I do blame him for not seeing that Webb is not grasping it. No, it's not Tices fault that Webb doesn't grasp it, but it is Tices fault that he has not seen this and asked for someone else.

Lovie is Tices boss. It's his job to oversee the team. In other words, when Tice tells him that his coaching is godlike and he can make it work with who he has, Lovie should be able to make his own evaluation and decide if his coach can really deliver on his promises both by his knowledge of the coach and the player. Either this did not happen or Lovie is no better at this than Tice.

I blame both Tice and Lovie. Tice for saying he had good players on the line and not being able to really evaluate what he had in Webb, and I blame Lovie for listening to Tice. Emery gets a pass from me. He had his hands full, had not worked with either Tice, Emery nor Webb, so when Tice says he is good and the HC confirms it, he is going to fill his other needs that he is hearing the club does not have an answer for.

That's my view on this mess.

Originally Posted by soulman

That's what Tice has done and it isn't his fault that Webb has failed to grasp most of the nuances of playing LT in the NFL.

Lovie and Emery? Nope. It's not like they didn't know they had a potential problem there but the solutions weren't exactly running up and knocking on the Bears front door. We had a shot at getting some help last year when all of those FA lineman hit the market but JA wouldn't pony up for any of them so we came away empty handed.

**A-11** · 08-14-2012, 08:54 PM

Nice little rant debate you have here. Good stuff.

Since I have no clue what went into the decisions, I could pretty much draw a name out of a hat and go from there. Generally I trend with the notion that they all are to blame, including the T-shirt spokesman for J-Webb Nation (hell, might as well throw in JA for good measure).

As my co-workers should… err might say; stop worrying about where you need to point the blame because we’ve already told the boss it’s your fault! Is it frustrating? Hell yes.

I’m frustrated because when I first started following the bears in April (I came in with the draft), I listened to interviews and got the impression that the FO was fairly content with the O Line.

On 4/30/12 Smith said, “We addressed all of the needs that we had identified before the draft started. So that’s why you see a big smile on most of our faces around here.”

Well okay, perhaps Smith’s quote is tainted with a little bit of post draft excitement…

So, I dug up an article from the month before, titled, "Phil Emery and Lovie Smith are OK with Bears’ offensive line" By SEAN JENSEN sjensen@suntimes.com March 28, 2012 9:02PM

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/11587...sive-line.html

**This is where I should have got the hint.** Don't let the title confuse you, because there are very politically correct statements contained within. I do not read anywhere in the article where Smith or Emery, in fact, said they were "...OK with Bears' offensive line." What they did was accentuate the positive, and I bit. Those asshats.

Last month (7-13-12) Mike Tice said: “I feel like we have guys with talent. Unfortunately, some of it is unrealized talent in terms of not enough consistency. We have some young guys who have shown the ability to play at a high level, but some in the run game only and some only in pass protection. What we need from the younger guys is to take the next step and play at a high level with more consistency. But that’s what happens when you have young players. It normally takes until the third year of playing full time for a young player to really get in a groove and play at a high level of consistency. So we’re looking forward to that with a couple of our young guys and we’ll see what happens.”

Last week (8-6-12) Tice said “I thought that one guy would separate himself and really jump out there.”

Well as we know, that hasn’t happened and Tice thought wrong, it happens. Now how many more games will they need to take to establish this status quo, set the bar, and let these players settle into a position? If they have not jumped by now, embrace yourself for the thought that… there is no jump. Evil Knievel backed off the stage, and you might take advantage of the rest of the show before the lights turn out.

The competition that wasn’t, Webb appointed starter, no wait Williams, well mabey, that “other, other guy” Carimi could he switch to the left? Jeebus, no wonder Tice can’t sleep at night. This is basically all I’m reading is talk about the offensive line. Not that they haven’t given everyone some reasons. Unfortunately taking some action, which is, the only part that matters seems missing. There are no miracles at this point... I understand why Tice was hoping, but if that was his belief all along and what was sold to Emery or Lovie shame on Mike.

I hope that everything up front is just like everything preseason, exaggerated. Many of you here have given me hope. You know sometimes average is great. And what the hell, if the bears turn out to be the wrong bandwagon to jump on so be it. I’ll just have to drink more beer.

**soulman** · 08-14-2012, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by bearsinhouston

Soul - there are several perspectives on any issue, and I do disagree on some of your views on this. Obviously, I am not saying I am right and you are wrong, but I do disagree.

This is not Tices first year with Webb. And Tice is supposedly at the pinnacle level of coaching. An NFL coach that has been a HC. In other words, he should be able to evaluate what he has. Being as he has been with Webb for a while, I do blame him for not seeing that Webb is not grasping it. No, it's not Tices fault that Webb doesn't grasp it, but it is Tices fault that he has not seen this and asked for someone else.

(The extended logic on it is that it generally takes three full seasons for a lineman to perform consistently at an NFL level. There are exceptions to the rule but not many. I believe that until camp this is what Tice was hanging his hat on. I truly believe that he felt Webb would take a quantum leap forward this year and that's why he has continued to back him until very recently. Now he can see there is no quantum leap in this kid and it will be very long slow process to make a successful LT out of him if it can even be done at all. This is what I was basing my thinking on.)

Lovie is Tices boss. It's his job to oversee the team. In other words, when Tice tells him that his coaching is godlike and he can make it work with who he has, Lovie should be able to make his own evaluation and decide if his coach can really deliver on his promises both by his knowledge of the coach and the player. Either this did not happen or Lovie is no better at this than Tice.

(We all know Lovie's judgement is flawed as it relates to almost anyone who plays the other side of the ball from his defense. He's a motivator and a defensive strategist and that's about where Lovie's skill stops. When he retires from coaching he'll never be anyone's GM or Director of Player Personnel. He knows the difference between excellence and serviceable and how a guy fits the big picture but he probably couldn't recognize offensive potential if it kicked him in the nuts. He has always been dependent on others in that regard and he still is. I doubt his thought process was any different than Tice's. Which was, "It's the kids 3rd year so now we'll see some real gains in his maturity and his play". While those offseason tweets of Webbs should have been a tip off that both he and Tice were wrong I don't think coaches pay much heed to them. Lovie is as much a victim of his reasonable expectations as Tice.)

I blame both Tice and Lovie. Tice for saying he had good players on the line and not being able to really evaluate what he had in Webb, and I blame Lovie for listening to Tice. Emery gets a pass from me. He had his hands full, had not worked with either Tice, Emery nor Webb, so when Tice says he is good and the HC confirms it, he is going to fill his other needs that he is hearing the club does not have an answer for.

(But I do think we have some good players on that line and no less an expert with a viewpoint than Tom Thayer says the same. Unfortunately at this moment in time J'Webb isn't one of them. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. With the singular exception of J'Webb I think these guys will all look 100% better once the starting five become that and they begin to work their blocking schemes out as a unit without everyone being on a daily hump for his starting spot. Even Webb might come around a bit or if not then maybe it's CWill's whose brains will best Webbs brawn. So Webb's lack of maturity and progress fooled both of them, meh. It happens. Nobody's perfect and it's what they do about it from here that counts anyway. How do the correct.

I used to fly airplanes and while the instructors teach you a lot about how to avoid spins you still need to show that you can recover from one just in case your piloting skills are about is good as Webb's LT skills. Shit happens that sometimes can't be avoided so how you recover from it is more important than how you got into it. Maybe Steve Rosenbloom should write an article about that and if he's incapable if he pays my I'll write it for him, LOL)

That's my view on this mess.

Just a little further dope on what I was thinking when I wrote what I did houston. I do honestly believe both Lovie and Tice thought the kid could turn it around and it's not happening yet. But to Emery's credit he at least brought in a rookie and a second year man who look like they may have some talent. I think Brown makes the final cut for certain and it wouldn't surprise me to see Brandon hanging around in some capacity either. We'll just have to see how it all breaks out.

**yttocs** · 08-14-2012, 09:16 PM

I'm still in favor of giving CW some real time at LT ( can't hurt), 6 games aleast. CW played what 2 games at LT his rookie year ( First full year?) Whats the worst, they take Webb of the bench and replace CW, give him a shot. Why was he moved to RT so sonn and Webb given a year? I have scratch my head so much with all the decisions made on who plays where ,it hurt all the way down to my ass now when i do. Quit spliting reps, sit Webb for a few RS games and let CW TRY.

**short faced bear** · 08-14-2012, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by yttocs

I'm still in favor of giving CW some real time at LT ( can't hurt), 6 games aleast. CW played what 2 games at LT his rookie year ( First full year?) Whats the worst, they take Webb of the bench and replace CW, give him a shot. Why was he moved to RT so sonn and Webb given a year? I have scratch my head so much with all the decisions made on who plays where ,it hurt all the way down to my ass now when i do. Quit spliting reps, sit Webb for a few RS games and let CW TRY.

Yeah, it's definitely time for Tice to quit being so stubborn about the position and give someone else a LEGIT try. Would be ironic if Spencer starts to tank at LG and Cwill will be decent at LT.

**soulman** · 08-14-2012, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by yttocs

I'm still in favor of giving CW some real time at LT ( can't hurt), 6 games aleast. CW played what 2 games at LT his rookie year ( First full year?) Whats the worst, they take Webb of the bench and replace CW, give him a shot. Why was he moved to RT so sonn and Webb given a year? I have scratch my head so much with all the decisions made on who plays where ,it hurt all the way down to my ass now when i do. Quit spliting reps, sit Webb for a few RS games and let CW TRY.

I think part of the problem scotty was that bonehead move Tice made putting CWill over at RT for a week or more and taking all those LT reps and the element of a "head to head" daily competition away. Ostensibly it was done in order to provide Cutler with better protection but Cutler never needed it because he never even played.

One thing we do know already is that for whatever combination of reasons CWill isn't a very good RT. Some guys can play either side of the line and some can't. He's in the latter group. He's strictly a left side player. Another thing we do know is that he's actually turned into a halfway decent LG who could get much better if they leave him there and we also know moving him around delays his development.

What we don't know is whether or not he can now play LT better than he did before. The only way to find that out was to work him at it in camp and in a game setting but because Tice moved him that window is closing fast. We need to get the starting five established ASAP and not screw around with it for another two weeks. If it's Webb it's Webb and then,if they have half a brain, CWill should go back to LG. We've got Spencer there now and for all we know he could be a strict right side guy but once again we're experimenting when we really shouldn't be.

If CWill doesn't stand some folks on their ear after this weekend then just put the starting five from last year back where they were and let those left out compete with those guys for the rest of camp and into the season. Right the line looks lost so the solution is to go back to the last place you were when you weren't lost......or at least not quite as lost.

**JJ-30** · 08-14-2012, 11:57 PM

I'll be the one to get back on track here.

1. Tice for thinking he know more then what the rest of world seen in Webb.
2. Lovie for believing that Tice seen something in Webb when he couldn't
3. Emery for believing Lovie and Tice know what they were talking about when it came not only Webb but the whole O line.

**Henry Burris** · 08-15-2012, 06:03 AM

Lovie has always been a "yes man" to the people under him.....

**Riczaj01** · 08-15-2012, 07:13 AM

1 I see WHY they thought this guy just needed a chance, he has all the measurables; and by all accounts he's really smart, and can be well spoken.
2 If that guy does not have the mean streak though, it doesn't matter how athletic he can be. My son looks like a full grade bigger then he actually is, he has always been the biggest kid in the class and it's not close, and has for awhile, but he's a teddy bear, he would be pointless in Football unless something changes.
3 The group is now realizing the guy doesn't have it in him and are now screwed b/c they put all their eggs into one basket that consisted of 2 guys that CANNOT play the position well enough to run the O they want to.

As for blame, it goes to all the above plus JA. JA knew when he got here he needed to build a legit OL, and he did...then he let it rot away w/out doing anything about it until he took CWill, by then it was to little to late. Lovie didn't care apparently, and Tice backed a losing hand. Emery is going to get a free pass by many and shouldn't though, he had the ability to fix this OL(#1 issue from last year) and went to solve the #2 problem(pass rush) w/a guy that isn't even a starter so he really didn't even solve that issue.

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