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Originally Posted by
Riczaj01 
And he's mismanagd the talent, obviously Spencer and Webb are not good enough to be starters(first mistake) then you put BOTH on Cutlers blind side?!?!?!
Seems he's at least benching Spencer. I'm not holding my breath but hopefully Scott or Williams or someone else can replace Webb before too long.
Yeah, I don't think that's been lost on anyone. One of the great Tice mysteries.....
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Originally Posted by
Riczaj01 I think the F/O and Lovie have probably already handled this issue. I also think you'll see a lot more run setting up pass from now on; btw I'm not going to 100% pin that pass first stuff on Tice, and more on Bates/Cutler remember Tice is taking their advice in the passing game. He's still the playcaller so he gets a lot and the majority of hit, but not 100% of it.
Tice does get 100% of the OL blame though. He moves that OL around like they all do the same thing, and it's not fair to those guys, LT and RT are completely different, then you take someone from RT to LT then move them to G in so many years and you expect them to perform at a high level(talking about just about all the line not just Webb/Williams)? And he's mismanagd the talent, obviously Spencer and Webb are not good enough to be starters(first mistake) then you put BOTH on Cutlers blind side?!?!?!
Seems he's at least benching Spencer. I'm not holding my breath but hopefully Scott or Williams or someone else can replace Webb before too long.
Maybe Tice is just trying to make an oline that can "get us by" this year - out of a unit that isn't NFL-quality players. If that is the case then maybe Emery shares some blame here. Tice may be the guy rearranging the deck chairs, but Emery is the captain of this Titanic.
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I'm still going back to what I said before. Tice is the guy that is saying that his group is fine and personell is not the problem. If I come onto a job where I know that I have a problem and the supervisor tells me that the people are fine, thet he just hasn't had a chance to make them gel yet and the HC backs this us (probable), guess what -- I'm going to go onto my other fires like WR, QB, RB and DE especially since I know that I can't fix them all anyway. My guy says don't worry about the people, they are not the problem, I look at it as a Godsend. I couldn't address them all anyway and now I don't have to.
I blame Emery very little at this point. If he doesn't address the OL in a big way next offseason, then I will say he part of the problem, but I just don't see that happening
Originally Posted by
JustAnotherBearsFan99 Maybe Tice is just trying to make an oline that can "get us by" this year - out of a unit that isn't NFL-quality players. If that is the case then maybe Emery shares some blame here. Tice may be the guy rearranging the deck chairs, but Emery is the captain of this Titanic.
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A typical Bears move after this season would be to blame Tice, fire him as the fall-guy, and everyone else is OK. Business as usual.
Do you guys think Emery is feeling ANY heat over this? Anything? Or is he still enjoying the honeymoon phase that we gave Jerry Angelo for years?
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Well, judging by responses here, a portion of the population is blaming him to some extent, so I would have to say yes.
I myself am not, but I think that he is probably feeling some heat. I don't think anyone expected the line to be as bad again. However, looking back, you can see why. All of Tices movement couldn't possibly be good. Keeping CW out when he was effective at LG can't be good - and it wasn't. Spencer was like a red carpet ride to the QB.
AT the time, most of us trusted that Tice knew what he was doing. I now think the opposite and he is going to have to show me different. The OL guru moniker cuts no mustard with me. For all I know his mother called in the label in a morning show. I just know what I see, and I don't see anything close to an OL guru. More like an OL disaster.
Originally Posted by
JustAnotherBearsFan99 A typical Bears move after this season would be to blame Tice, fire him as the fall-guy, and everyone else is OK. Business as usual.
Do you guys think Emery is feeling ANY heat over this? Anything? Or is he still enjoying the honeymoon phase that we gave Jerry Angelo for years?
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Originally Posted by
JustAnotherBearsFan99 A typical Bears move after this season would be to blame Tice, fire him as the fall-guy, and everyone else is OK. Business as usual.
Do you guys think Emery is feeling ANY heat over this? Anything? Or is he still enjoying the honeymoon phase that we gave Jerry Angelo for years?
JABF, I have to disagree with you about Tice being made the "fall guy" next offseason in the scenario you are wondering about (the OL wrecking an otherwise promising season). A fall guy is a scapegoat. Someone with little to no responsibility for a problem who is trotted out as the "blame target" so that others can deflect accountability away from themselves. IF the above scenario comes true, Tice wouldn't be a fall guy...he would be the PROPER PLACE TO FIX RESPONSIBILITY AND BLAME.
Tice had been OL coach for several years prior to becoming OC. He still retains much managerial authority over the OL for continuity's sake. He's really a Sr. OL coach/OC with Bates being his vice-OC/pass advisor. Tice also expressed much undue confidence in the OL and Webb in particular last winter/spring. He thought, mistakenly, that Webb was going to step up big time with this being his 3rd in the league and his 2nd starting at LT. Remember that Emery didn't even come on board until what late Feb/early March? Phil had to make do with much of the existing staff to start until he could gradually re-make it with the personnel and organizational chart he felt best (coaches, scouts, etc). Also remember that it is Tice doing the gameplanning and playcalling and he also publicly talked about "scheme changes" (audibles, roll-outs, shorter drops, etc) being used this season to help out the OL in a de-Martz-ification strategy.
In summary, if the OL wrecks this season, it IS ON TICE and he SHOULD BE HELD RESPONSIBLE. He wouldn't be a "fall guy", he would be the "accountable guy" along with his immediate boss, Lovie IMO. If this happens, Emery should PROPERLY can them both and perhaps elevate Bates to OC and Toub to HC (or whoever he sees fit from the outside).
I don't see hoe anyone here can, outside of mindless frustration, intelligently blame Emery for the OL's woes. We have been over this many many times before. He had little time to work with, had many problems to deal with, fixed what he could (quite brilliantly IMO), was told that Tice had confidence in and would elevate the OL, and besides he had virtually no options to "fix" LT and few to upgrade the interior OL. If you really want to review FA and the draft, we can but I'm pretty confident you would see that there weren't many options and the trade-offs involved make it all hindsight anyway. About the only quibble you can truly question him about was Cordy Glenn. He was projected as a OG but has started for the Bills I believe as a LT (don't know how he's doing). We needed a passrusher desperately too and we needed to develop our own future marqui WR too. Based on very early evidence, Shea and AJ look like excellent choices who are going to pay big dividends for us as time goes on. None of the "2nd tier" OTs beyond Glenn (Reiff, Martin, Adams) are starting at LT for their teams and in fact I don't even think they are starting anywhere along the OL. Drafting one of them would have cost us either Shea or AJ and been a "future project" only. We would still have Webb playing LT.
Bottom line, this OL situation is Tice's baby for this year and Tice will sink or swim with it. He stamped the personnel, he runs the "scheme", playcalling, & protection packages, and he is still the de facto OL coach. If it fails/flops and takes the team down with it, I'm pretty confident that Emery will A) hold Tice primarily accountable and B) focus hard on upgrading it in next year's FA and draft.
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I think this is something that reasonable people can agree to disagree on. Especially since we don't know what exactly went on behind the scenes this year. Tice saying the guys would be fine, may have been putting a "good face" on this situation for Emery because he was told he had to sail with this crew for one more year. In other words he may have "taken one for the team" on this.
I mean, what is he going to say "my GM decided we won't go after oline players this off season, even though the we have the 32nd rated oline in the NFL. The players are pure crap, but we have to use these guys anyway" .....no, I think he tried to squeeze something serviceable out of this rag tag group.
I realize we can "dumb down" the playbook and have extra guys blocking too. But there is no free lunch here. It can result in having these wonderful new and powerful offensive weapons - but not being able to use them due to propping up the bad oline. But sure, we can do that & probably will HAVE to do that against the better teams we face this season.
I do think Emery can be a good GM for us. But he's the guy who supplies the talent. So in my book, if there is a serious failure to have talent with this oline, (that has BEEN a problem for multiple years), then yes, as the "personnel guy" Emery has to share a bit of the blame.
The bottom line is that Emery AND the coaches gambled that the chicken crap could be made into chicken salad. It still looks like poop to me.
Last edited by JustAnotherBearsFan99; 09-18-2012 at 02:03 PM.
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Originally Posted by
JustAnotherBearsFan99 I do think Emery can be a good GM for us. But he's the guy who supplies the talent. So in my book, if there is a serious failure to have talent with this oline, (that has BEEN a problem for multiple years), then yes, as the "personnel guy" Emery has to share a bit of the blame.
The bottom line is that Emery AND the coaches gambled that the chicken crap could be made into chicken salad. It still looks like poop to me.
As the "talent supplier" (for just a few months only), tell me specifically what moves Emery should have made along with their accompanying trade-offs...
Love to hear your thoughts.
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Originally Posted by
MPBears68 As the "talent supplier" (for just a few months only), tell me specifically what moves Emery should have made along with their accompanying trade-offs...
Love to hear your thoughts.
As some have said, this is part of Jerry Angelo's failure too. Emery was put in a horrible situation. And I 100% agree you can't fix everything in 1 year.
My point is that the oline failure, may not be all on Tice. If Emery wanted to address other needs, I'm not disagreeing with that decision (not agreeing either). I am saying that if you fail to fix a unit like this, then that may not be ALL on Tice. Especially if Tice was told to be the "good soldier" here and make due with the 32nd rated oline in the NFL - for one more year. Tice may have tried to put a good face on the situation and soldiered on. Emery and the coaches rolled the dice that the season wouldn't tank over this (going with the same oline personnel another year).
I'm not disagreeing with leaving the oline to rot another year. I do however, question that it's all on Tice if the unit is bad again. What would ANY reasonable person expect in this scenario?
Last edited by JustAnotherBearsFan99; 09-18-2012 at 02:13 PM.
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Originally Posted by
JustAnotherBearsFan99 As some have said, this is part of Jerry Angelo's failure too. Emery was put in a horrible situation. And I 100% agree you can't fix everything in 1 year.
My point is that the oline failure, may not be all on Tice. If Emery wanted to address other needs, I'm not disagreeing with that decision (not agreeing either). I am saying that if you fail to fix a unit like this, then that may not be ALL on Tice. Especially if Tice was told to be the "good soldier" here and make due with the 32nd rated oline in the NFL - for one more year. Tice may have tried to put a good face on the situation and soldiered on. Emery and the coaches rolled the dice that the season wouldn't tank over this (going with the same oline personnel another year).
I'm not disagreeing with leaving the oline to rot another year. I do however, question that it's all on Tice if the unit is bad again. What would ANY reasonable person expect in this scenario?
JABF, my friend, that was a very politician-like "non-answer answer" lol. What specific move(s), along with their accompanying trade-offs, would you have wanted Emery to have made last offseason???
Im still waiting to hear...
Last edited by MPBears68; 09-18-2012 at 02:24 PM.
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