B. Biggs: Webb becoming more 'aware' and thus playing 'faster' and better

One additional thought. As we journey through this season, don't expect Webb will never have games where he struggles. He's under the microscope like Cutler now. People watching his every move, and ready to jump on him when he screws up (just like they will when Cutler has a few bad moments on and off the field this season).

I'm not equating Webb to Cutler here. Cutler has proven that he can play at a high level in the NFL. Webb hasn't. But both of these guys will have fans exaggerate every misstep this season. We all need to step back a bit, and at the end of this season, look over the entire body of work for both men. Cutler isn't going to be Tom Brady or Manning, but that's OK. He can still be valuable to us. Very valuable. Webb won't be going to the Pro-Bowl. But he can still be valuable to us too.

Tice has invested two years into developing Webb and it's beginning (just beginning) to pay dividends. Let's be patient and see what he's developed in this player, and when the season's over, THEN pass final judgement.

Yeah, that's well said 99. The kid has the perfect build and natural athleticism for a LT as you're ever likely to find and so far Tice hasn't been too far wrong in his judgements regarding the guys on his line. I'd state the following as evidence of that.

1) He immediately labeled Carimi as more of a true RT than a LT despite the fact that he was an Outland Trophy winner as a college LT. Carimi's forte at Wisconsin was always his run blocking and I think we see the same in the pros. He's still learning to pass block as a RT and he would have struggled at LT just as Webb has and once again we'd have been calling just one more high draftee a wasted pick.

2) Before last season Tice told us that Louis was a very good pass blocker but he wasn't able to show that as much playing out of position at RT. Now that he's back at OG we're seeing what Tice saw. I don't think he's been charged with allowing a sack in any of the first five games. Looks like Tice had him pegged pretty well but it's also taken until this, his fourth year, for him to reach this point.

3) Rachal failed in SF as a RG mostly because of his failure as a pass blocker but he's a big guy and he plays mean. So far the idea of playing him next to Webb seems to helping both of them. Either of these two get killed by the speed guys so they need some help. Since Louis usually has his guy under control that allows Garza to help Rachal by doubling the DT and of course we can use a back or a TE to chip in order to help Webb when needed. But as run blockers Webb and Rachal can both get the job done and our inside run game and runs to the left have looked much better this year than last.

4) EWill has a bit of a surprise when he filled in for CWill last year. He wasn't as good but he didn't stink either and he showed the kind of movement and quickness that should serve him well at OC when he needs to replace Garza. Apparently they saw enough good in him to extend his contract and unless they saw him as Garza's heir they wouldn't have done that.

Tice has a far better eye for OLine talent than anyone else we ever had around but he's also been asked to make chicken salad out of what may have here referred to as "chicken shit". I'm one of those guys who believe that you can't jut sign expensive FAs or draft lineman in the first round and be assured of getting what you want. You need to build your line up from scratch and get them playing up to their natural abilities and playing well together.

Tice seems to be getting that done. They're a long way from being really good but so far this year they've shown improvement game to game. Webb included. How well he performs from this point on will dictate what we need to do next spring. If he plays well enough to think he can get even better then we can probably go with Scott as a reserve and look to keep developing others we may draft. If not then we must look to FA for another guy to challenge him and probably take the spot away from him and then we make him the reserve.

I look at it this way. It's still Webb's job to win or lose and right now Tice intends to give him enough latitude to do either.

Soul makes some excellent points. Also, if Webb and Carimi both improve this year, and look like our tackles of the future, then that would allow us to:

1. Continue to develop our two PS tackles.

2. Draft 2 interior line studs (much easier to get great interior linemen)

3. The result COULD be that our oline becomes a team strength rather than our perennial weakness.

I have been critical of Webb, but I hope he succeeds, even becomes a franchise LT. He has looked better over the last few games. That being said, he has also had instances where he flat-out tackled people and got away with it. He also is regularly getting help from TEs, while Carimi is holding is own on an island. Still, it's encouraging and I hope Webb continues to improve. As I said before, we don't need him to a franchise LT, although it would surely be great. We just need him to just do a fair job.

That being said, I think that barring some miraculous turn-around where Webb starts tossing around pro bowl DEs with regularity, I think his time as LT will be up after this year. Emery knows how huge of a problem that spot has been for the Bears, and there are three soon-to-be free agents who are franchise LTs or pretty close to it. I don't think any amount of good play from here on out can save Webb his job. The only way he starts at LT next year is if Emery wiffs on Long, Clady and Bushrod.

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Originally Posted by Rogelio

I have been critical of Webb, but I hope he succeeds, even becomes a franchise LT. He has looked better over the last few games. That being said, he has also had instances where he flat-out tackled people and got away with it. He also is regularly getting help from TEs, while Carimi is holding is own on an island. Still, it's encouraging and I hope Webb continues to improve. As I said before, we don't need him to a franchise LT, although it would surely be great. We just need him to just do a fair job.

That being said, I think that barring some miraculous turn-around where Webb starts tossing around pro bowl DEs with regularity, I think his time as LT will be up after this year. Emery knows how huge of a problem that spot has been for the Bears, and there are three soon-to-be free agents who are franchise LTs or pretty close to it. I don't think any amount of good play from here on out can save Webb his job. The only way he starts at LT next year is if Emery wiffs on Long, Clady and Bushrod.

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You never know. From Emery's standpoint, building a Super Bowl winner is like an extremely complex equation. There is a money variable to the equation also. I think that at the end of the year there will be a final judgement of Webb. If he is not the answer, then Emery will have a HUGE issue to fix. LT's are almost like getting a franchise QB. Not easy to get one.

Even if we did have a top-10 draft pick (which isn't going to happen) there is no guarantee the LT you draft will work out in the NFL. Even if a top-10 draft pick has the talent to eventually be a starting LT, we'd still probably have to suffer through a tough year or two while he learns the craft at the NFL level (which is light-years more advanced than ANY college defense he's faced).

If Webb could be an average level LT, then it would be a HUGE asset to our team. Only a very few teams have a great LT. Most have to make due with "average" and I suspect they are mighty glad they have an average one.

One last point. Webb is still going to have rough outings from time to time. He will have games (like most LT's in the NFL) where he gives up some sacks/hits on the QB. I just hope the fans are savvy enough to not go over-the-top like diva's crying over this. Just because the guy has had a few good games doesn't mean he's a Pro Bowl LT now. He's obviously not, but that's not the end of the world.

FWIW, he doesn't get help as much as you would think. He's left "on the island" a number of plays each game now. In fact, Carimi is looking like our weakest link now on that oline, and will needs help at times. Carimi will be fine. He's just basically a rookie this year due to last year's injury.

Some good stuff here JABF:

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Originally Posted by JustAnotherBearsFan99

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Tice saw something in this raw, goofy kid. Tice knows offensive linemen have to be some of the most intelligent players on your team, so he must have believed there was no lack of intelligence in Webb. Just a lack of maturity. That can be fixed....

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I hope this is the case. I do not know Webb, I just have had an unfavorable impressions from tidbits throughout the off season. Much of it could be explained away... I don't really know what the deal was with snap counts last year either.

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Originally Posted by JustAnotherBearsFan99

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Another thing to consider. Just because Webb struggled, doesn't automatically equate to a lack of effort. Fans want to get down on players for not playing well. But that doesn't always mean they haven't given 100% effort. Sometimes their 100% effort simply isn't good enough. I know that is a difficult concept for many fans to understand. But players don't purposely want to go out and suck in front of hundreds of thousands of fans watching on TV or at the stadium. Think about that. Don't you think these guys have feelings too? They want to be great at what they do. The problem is that often players can't be great....

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This part I mildly disagree with. Perhaps not in the case of Webb though... Some players appear often to be in it just for the paycheck. Randy Moss at times could be my poster boy for this. We have also seen the situations where starting caliber players decide the game isn't for them and they resign or get released by request. Of course if your suited down I hope you're there to give your best and play with a love for the game, but I just don't see it for everyone, realistically.

With only being able to watch from the outside, I have been guilty of getting down on players where I shouldn't have. Just because a player handles things differently than I'd like to see on my television set doesn't mean the impression is accurate. I also have been off with my perceived potential of individuals and teams. Philadelphia anyone?

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Originally Posted by JustAnotherBearsFan99

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Fans are fickle. Many (especially the clueless ones) can only see players as great or as bums. It's all a "black and white world" and no shades of gray. But the NFL isn't like that. Players' are at an infinite array in the talent spectrum. We don't know yet where Webb falls in that spectrum. But he may not be either a bum or a star. Just a guy who can help us win this year. Maybe even for many years to come.

I keep coming back to the simple fact that Mike Tice sees something in this player that is so good, he stuck his neck out to play him, and stand by him for these last two years - and at LT, which to me sounds like madness. Except for the fact Tice is not a crazy person. So, something good is there to coach up in this kid. Something worth pushing all your poker chips into the pot. We'll see if he goes bust, or wins with a good player here....

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The outcome of games in the NFL is fickle too. Yeah, you want a team full of aces... but your right, fans are too quick to get down on the two's and three's. We don't know how these players will turn out for the team, especially as fans. Tice and the front office made a choice, and we get to enjoy watching it unfold.

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Originally Posted by JustAnotherBearsFan99

I think intelligent fans go beyond the emotional quick judgement, and see more deeply into the complexity of this NFL game. As Mike Ditka says "It ain't tiddly winks" :smile:

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..Ain't tiddly winks?
Blitz'd, Bomb'd, Crud!

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Originally Posted by JustAnotherBearsFan99

One last point. Webb is still going to have rough outings from time to time. He will have games (like most LT's in the NFL) where he gives up some sacks/hits on the QB. I just hope the fans are savvy enough to not go over-the-top like diva's crying over this. Just because the guy has had a few good games doesn't mean he's a Pro Bowl LT now. He's obviously not, but that's not the end of the world.

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I don't think Webb has to worry about getting grilled by the fans or the media. Diehards on messageboards like us understand that Webb hasn't been good, but probably 90% of football fans don't understand the game and blame EVERYTHING on Cutler (and I'm not saying he doesn't deserve blame on anything). Cutler could have five picks which result from him hitting a receiver in the hands and having the ball bobbled, it would be Jay's fault. He could get sacked five times on blitzes where he doesn't even have a chance to turn around and they would say he should have thrown the ball away earlier. The media doesn't like Jay, and the average fan, whether they actually follow the team or just watch casually, will parrot what the media says. If anything, Webb is lucky to have Jay as his QB because his ass would have been under fire if his "pouty" QB hadn't drawn the media's ire.

Should I be eating a bag of dicks? LOL

I think the goal for Webb this year is to limit his penalties to a minimum and to give up nine sacks or fewer. If he can do that, he's golden to me. However, if he has another season whereby he gives up thirteen or fourteen sacks plus is penalized fifteen to twenty times, it'll be time to part ways with him. He's getting help, and I have heard that he has improved dramatically over the previous two years because of the game broadcasters hardly ever mentioning his name. I will admit that I know jack-diddly about footwork, hand punches, etc., so I'll leave that analysis to you guys. I think, though, that Emery and Lovie should have given Webb a series of stats to aim for to have achieved by season's end. If he can do those things, I'd say we have ourselves a very serviceable LT. If not, then it's time to go after either Long, Clady, or Bushrod and keep Webb as a swing tackle.

Emery's toughest decision of next offseason may revolve around what to do about LT. Can we survive and win with Webb? If so with his salary at just $575k and his cap hit at just $590k that leaves us with a lot of cap space to extend guys like Melton, Louis, and Urlacher out of 2013 cap dollars and not have to worry about Webb until 2014 when our cap excess sky rockets and can better accommodate what it will cost for a great LT and an extension for Cutler.

If we have to replace him with any of the top LT prospects available in FA were talking about spending 10x to 20x that much in cap cost and it will inhibit us in other ways as far as FA signings and even re-signing our own guys. I think has a lot to do with the Bears willingness to give him very opportunity to succeed at it.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't spend the money to fix the problem if it still needs fixing but I am offering a rationalization for their thinking. Would any of the even lower cost guys we could might sign be 10x better than Webb? Would we be 20x better off with Jake Long as we are with Webb? That has to be at least part of the their thought process if this doesn't work out by the end of this year.

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Originally Posted by soulman

Emery's toughest decision of next offseason may revolve around what to do about LT. Can we survive and win with Webb? If so with his salary at just $575k and his cap hit at just $590k that leaves us with a lot of cap space to extend guys like Melton, Louis, and Urlacher out of 2013 cap dollars and not have to worry about Webb until 2014 when our cap excess sky rockets and can better accommodate what it will cost for a great LT and an extension for Cutler.

If we have to replace him with any of the top LT prospects available in FA were talking about spending 10x to 20x that much in cap cost and it will inhibit us in other ways as far as FA signings and even re-signing our own guys. I think has a lot to do with the Bears willingness to give him very opportunity to succeed at it.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't spend the money to fix the problem if it still needs fixing but I am offering a rationalization for their thinking. Would any of the even lower cost guys we could might sign be 10x better than Webb? Would we be 20x better off with Jake Long as we are with Webb? That has to be at least part of the their thought process if this doesn't work out by the end of this year.

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Soul, as a longtime fan of the New York Yankees, I think you know what my answer to this is going to be. You want your roster filled with the best players that are available. Now, I don't know what our cap limit is going to be this offseason, so I'm hesitant to speculate. I do know that we must play within the confines of the salary cap infrastructure as set out by the NFL, which the New York Yankees aren't inhibited by in baseball. (Thank God! Though I must say that over the past two years, the Steinbrenner brothers have decided to cut their expenditures in order to spend below the salary cap.)

We have the ability to purchase the services of one big free agent this offseason I would think. To me, I think it should be a LT, particularly if Webb gives up more than nine sacks. Right now, Webb is playing okay, but he also has three sacks in five games (two against the Packers). I want to see him against more tough competition before I'm ready to pass judgment on him. I want to be convinced that we're going to see the J'Marcus Webb who played against Jared Allen in the first Vikings game last season and gave up a sack that was more on Cutler than him and not the one who was in the second game giving up three sacks. It's an issue of both taking pride in your workmanship as well as doing the best that you can. I want to be convinced of both before I'm ready to buy into him.