Bears Question Personal Foul Calls on Izzy and Conte............

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Originally Posted by soulman

Well first of all you couldn't even get me to work for those rat bastards who run Walmart. They wouldn't want me anyway because I'd be handing out hand bills to everyone who walked through the door letting them know just how poorly they treat the employees that will soon be serving them. I'd get fired in my first hour.

So let's table that OK?

I'm sure your JD and the fact that you passed your bar exam and have a license to practice law in the courts of our fair land over qualify you for a post like that too. These guys have marketable skills. They're employable and despite what McMahon says few of them are truly broke. I don't see many of them in line for a free meal or living in a homeless shelter. Broke is a very relative term when you're talking about guys who made millions in their NFL careers.

The NFL is doing something about current player safety so it's their complaints about how very well it was ignored in the past that's what this is all about. How much did they know and when did they know it? How long was that knowledge ignored before the NFL took action. You're and attorney. Add it up. They have a case and a good one if they can prove that the NFL willingly ignored the dangers for years and eventually we'll all find that out unless it is settled and a non-disclosure agreed upon.

I think both you and I know that a monetary settlement is what they're after. Why destroy the NFL itself. Then where would the settlement monies come from? Can't draw water from an empty well. That being the case I'd say this statement is pure nonsense. Furthermore it's totally selfish thinking and this wouldn't be your position if you represented them would it? You've sort of skirted my questions related to that and substituted answers I never asked for.

They'll probably try to go all the way with the damn thing when they should settle and in the end they'll ruin the product for me and future generations.

So just answer the questions I ask counselor. Tell me why in your opinion they wouldn't settle. If you were their attorney that's exactly what you'd be shooting for. Nobody really wins in court least of all the attorneys who actually have to work for their fee instead of just collecting one for negotiating the deal. Yeah, I realize that's taking a pot shot at your profession but it's not unwarranted or completely undeserved. I didn't just get off the boat yesterday and I've been through more than my fair share of civil actions on behalf of my clients too not to mention having to launch a few lawsuits of my own.

And I love this one; I don't care how much they made back then, they were well paid. Even at 50,000 a year they should be fine. 50,000 to 100,000 in the 60's, 70's, and 80's makes you a top earner.

Being kind of judgmental here aren't we? That and a little confused as far as your application of mathematics. $50k in 1960 would be a fortunate income to have indeed but in 1980 it would be pretty much middle income. In 1982 I made around $35k. Certainly no great fortune that would have permitted me to become financially independent just because of it.

As I recall there was a time when attorneys worked for less than $100 per hour too. I remember paying around $70 per hour years ago. What do you get these days MM and should we all sit here and criticize how much you make? And since when does simply getting an insurer to cough up $10k to settle a claim for a fender bender with some minor injuries entitle you and your brethren to $3k to $4k just for making a few phone calls and filing some paperwork threatening a lawsuit?

And when was the last time you sustained multiple concussions while butting head with opposing counsel? Get any permanently crippling knee or hip injuries from opening courtroom doors anytime during your career? Eye strain from reading and devising "small print" I can see but that can be remedied with some readers like I use. I've never seen it cause permanent blindness.

If you lost your license to practice law what would be your "day job" of choice? Would you be handing me a shopping cart and wishing me a nice day when I walked through the doors of my local Walmart or bagging my groceries at Safeway?

My reference to players as being depreceable assets is correct. I'm talking about tax law here not your personal opinion of them. I guess that's not a legal specialty of yours. Player contracts are depreciated over time just like football helmets and shoulder pads. Here's your own statement to confirm that.

Depreciable assets can be counted on for a readily determinable useful life, discarded, and easily replaced.

I'd say it's pretty damn easy to determine what the average career of an NFL player is and the IRS agrees with me. And when a football players career is over isn't he discarded and just as easily replaced as a broken helmet or worn out set of shoulder pads? They are depreceable assets, trust me.

I'd say that's a lot of what any lawsuit the old timers bring is all about. They were used up and discarded just like those pieces of equipment but they're different. They're alive and human and they have to go on and live out the rest of their lives in pain or do what a few have done and end theirs.

You bring up the example of just one overpaid former high draft pick and you want to use that as an example to umbrella all of the thousands of guys who never got a pay check like that? Sorry objection overruled counselor. Highly irrelevant. Stick to the mainstream here.

Of course owners take a risk handing out big bonuses to rookies. Why do you think they negotiated themselves out of that position in this last CBA and put limitations on themselves in that regard. They can't even police their own overspending without legislating it. It's also the reason they get those tax deductions MM. It's called being "At Risk" and that's the basis for it in tax law. Certain things can be expensed and other must be depreciated. They're businessmen not hobbyists.

Look the bottom line is that those former players have a case if they can prove the NFL knew about the long term effects of head injuries they may have sustained while playing yet insisted they play anyway in order to get paid and still did little or nothing to prevent further injury. There are other risky professions but for the most part those guys have OSHA to protect them.

If you're an attorney you can pretty easily evaluate the merits of their complaint if I can. Somewhere down the line it comes to judgement day either in or out of court and somebody wins a little and somebody else loses a little. That's the way it works isn't it? They're not gonna put the NFL under so I wouldn't worry about having our game taken away from us. Not gonna happen.

I just think that one anyone mentions the word "greed" in the same sentence with an NFL player that if that same person doesn't also include the NFL owners then they're ignoring half the issue. It's more than just a sport. It's big business and sometimes big business gets sued. Happens every day. I haven't seen Apple or MS go under from any of theirs yet and and neither will the NFL.

MM, I'd like to go up against you in court some day. I think I could beat you. :lol-027:

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Hell no i'm not over qualified for anything. I can't wait to be some lazy old f%# sitting around for $8 an hour as a starter, free golf? I'm in!

My day-job of choice would be Bears GM, I'd fire Tice and quit.

You could criticize how much my firm bills me out for, but that has nothing to do with how much I'm getting. Funny thing is I'm billing myself out right now and I'm dicking around on forums, attorneys are scumbags I know. I do good work for people though, and a lot of free work too.

I've got a bachelors in accounting so I know exactly what you're talking about soul, I just don't agree. You think it'll be easy to replace Urlacher? I don't, no plug in for that guy. Tax law very regularly does not have anything to do with reality, a lot of times it has more to do with efficiency of collection or trying to treat everyone of a certain category the same, or giving people a tax break :) Can't waste time arguing how each contract should be depreciated, give each contract the same tax treatment and move on. They aren't trying to give out an accurate portrayal of financial statements to shareholders (accrual/G.A.A.P/I.F.R.S.), rather they are on a (modified accrual or) cash/tax basis. So trying to use tax guidance as your premise will have you chasing your tail pretty quickly. If they were using accrual you may have a point, since the point is to provide the most accurate picture possible, but they're not. Look at how the tax codes treat capital assets, double declining balance depreciation? All these ways to write off depreciation that don't have anything to do with reality and are just trying to give you a tax break? A lot of times things are fully depreciated on a tax basis a few years into their useful life, thats why there are so many book to tax differences.

I did get injured in college, everyone did. But it got me a free ride to school so I did it. I knew the risk and I didn't give a shit, just like NFL players. I chose a profession that has a very low chance of injury, unlike NFL players. Got to be some personal responsibility there. This is all speaking as a fan of course. That being said, former players do have a good case and I think they'll probably win at least a settlement (of which the lawyers will get all the money). The league has basically already admitted guilt with the rule changes they've instituted. I would be pretty easy to prove they knew certain things were hazardous, everyone knew lol. It's just like smoking.

Touche'. At least we get to the heart of the matter here don't we.

We can agree at least that players are a depreceable assets from a tax standpoint just like shoulder pads and helmets. What specific laws apply or how that's done may vary from team to team but it is done. That was my point not whether any one player is easily replaceable or not. That's irrelevant. I was talking about how it works in general.

I'm simply stating that NFL ownership gets a lot of tax breaks and advantages that offset that risk you insist they take handing out a big contract. Oil men drill dry holes too which is why they get some tax breaks others don't get but if they're any good they drill less of those than they do productive wells. Businessmen take risks, sometimes huge risk, but the rewards are also pretty huge if they're good at what they do or lucky enough to have acquired an NFL franchise for $78 mil that's worth over $1 billion today and made a $49 mil profit last year. We should all do so well.

If NFL owners don't acquire more productive players than busts like J'Marcus Russell they lose a lot of games. I think my point was that NFL owners get to write off expenditures or depreciate their assets to offset the risks they take and those assets include their players. But......an NFL player cannot depreciate his body for tax purposes even though he's using it up with every game he plays. So where are his tax benefits for those risks to his career and future health?

Players get what they get while they're healthy and can still play the game at the level required of them. When those days are over so is their career. So within reason I don't begrudge them getting what they can while the getting is good. Most have a pretty short career and most also have careers post NFL. We read far more about those who claim poverty than we do the success stories and their are thousands of those as well.

You can't take what Jimmy Mac says and use that to encapsulate what every old timer is going through or dealing with. I sincerely doubt Mac is broke in the sense that you and I might define it. But he and other did sustain injuries that may be affecting their daily lives and there ability to even keep track of whose off the first tee next. I have my own personal experience with mental and psychological disability and I can honestly say that it's very, very real.

Waking up some days with an "oatmeal brain" and a thought process that would make a glacier look like it was moving 100 miles and hour isn't much fun. What's even worse is knowing that it's not treatable and can't ever be reversed. To a degree I can understand why some of them took their own lives rather than live out the rest of their days waiting to become a vegetable. That's what some of these guys are dealing with and that's what's behind the lawsuits.

They took risks. We all take risks but how much risk and how much of it could have been lessened if things had been done differently? I don't really have a horse in that race and neither do you. They aren't gonna take the league down but what they do may bring about changes that will help today's players enough so that not as many go through what some of the guys who played the game before are going through.

All of this stuff about player safety has been ignored until it began to look like it might cost the owners billions of their dollars to correct it and make old issues go away. They're not kidding anyone. This is all about money. Their money. Player safety is a buzz word for disguising their real concerns. They care far less about the financial state of their former players than they do their own. Jerry Jones would rather lose football games than millions of dollars and we both know it.

Just like that line in "Trading Places" when Eddie Murphy tells Dan Akroyd that the best way to get back at rich people is to make them poor. The NFL owners are not about to become poor. There isn't anyone better at throwing some money at a problem to make it go away than they are. Just as long as it's not too much money and they can bill it to their clients, the networks.

So in closing all I want to know is.......what time can you get my foursome off on Sunday morning. :lol-027:

I think the biggest thing we are getting caught up on is this sense of "owing." I played football until I was 22 and it did a lot of great things for me. It made me friends in high school, it got me into a way better college than I ever should have gone to (and for very little money), and it taught me a lot of qualitative things like perseverance, discipline, and teamwork. Football doesn't owe me anything. It doesn't owe anything to professional players and coaches either.

Everyone who ever strapped it up knew/knows the risk of running into another grown man at full speed, repeatedly. Just like every cop, fireman, and military person who ever signed on knew/knows that they could one day be put in a situation where they were/are in a lot (often times mortal) of danger. Let me take this opportunity to thank those of you on this board who are/where public servants. I know there are a lot of you on here that are retired or active duty. But lets not turn this into a military discussion, I'm only making a small comparison.

No one has ever been forced to play football professionally and just because they didn't make plans or prepare themselves for life after football or they feel like they got screwed doesn't mean I'm good with them coming around and suing the NFL now. I don't like how the calls are effecting the game and that Conte call is a prime example in my mind.

Some of these guys did make plans and some of them didn't. I wish I could find the comments I heard from Jimmy Mac, it was a bunch of entitlement bullshit and is basically the reason for this rant. It was something along the lines of -- I'm not saying that we are all doing it for the money, but yea we didn't make the money these guys make today, so yea... its basically for the money -- not an exact quote but something close to it.

So you have a problem with owners getting tax breaks for paying their employees? I'm not sure that I really care about that so much. Players get insurance and pensions as compensation too. They also get everything I got from football and more. I'd say thats plenty, I know it was for me. Rookie league minimum is almost $500,000 now. It would take me a long time to make that much money. Even if they only play for 1 or 2 years thats enough for me to live on for a long time. Plenty of time to figure out something else to do, you've always got to have a plan "B" in life. It comes out the same as alimony really, one person pays and gets the write-off, another person receives and gets the income. I think it would be kind of silly for a business owner to pay income taxes on the employees income, don't you?

I know they aren't going to take the league down, what I'm worried about is the 15 yard penalty my team gets because of some bullshit call, I think its nonsense. Like I said in the beginning "don't get me wrong, I'm not crying for Jerry Jones," its not about their money, I could really give a shit. Owning an NFL team is pretty much a "led-pipe lock" because of the shared revenue system. You'd have to be a complete asshole to go broke. Was the Conte hit helmet to helmet? Sure it was, do I care? No, it was a glancing blow at best and didn't have any effect on the game.

Oh by the way, being a big guy myself, let me tell you guys something --> yes we can stop if we want to, our momentum doesn't carry us 3 steps into a guy (unless we get pushed from behind like Izzy did), most of the time you could stop or not hit the guy if you really wanted to. But who the hell would do that? I mean really, the whole point is to show the QB how close you were, let him know you are right there and you will plaster his butt to the ground. You think a guy as athletic as Pepp can't stop? You would be wrong sir, he just wants to send a message and at the same time doesn't want to spend the energy to get out of the way. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Soul I'm sorry to hear about your troubles brother, I don't know what thats like personally so I don't really know what to say. But keep fighting. I'm rooting for ya bud!

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Originally Posted by XxMidwayMonstersxX

I think the biggest thing we are getting caught up on is this sense of "owing." I played football until I was 22 and it did a lot of great things for me. It made me friends in high school, it got me into a way better college than I ever should have gone to (and for very little money), and it taught me a lot of qualitative things like perseverance, discipline, and teamwork. Football doesn't owe me anything. It doesn't owe anything to professional players and coaches either.

Everyone who ever strapped it up knew/knows the risk of running into another grown man at full speed, repeatedly. Just like every cop, fireman, and military person who ever signed on knew/knows that they could one day be put in a situation where they were/are in a lot (often times mortal) of danger. Let me take this opportunity to thank those of you on this board who are/where public servants. I know there are a lot of you on here that are retired or active duty. But lets not turn this into a military discussion, I'm only making a small comparison.

No one has ever been forced to play football professionally and just because they didn't make plans or prepare themselves for life after football or they feel like they got screwed doesn't mean I'm good with them coming around and suing the NFL now. I don't like how the calls are effecting the game and that Conte call is a prime example in my mind.

Some of these guys did make plans and some of them didn't. I wish I could find the comments I heard from Jimmy Mac, it was a bunch of entitlement bullshit and is basically the reason for this rant. It was something along the lines of -- I'm not saying that we are all doing it for the money, but yea we didn't make the money these guys make today, so yea... its basically for the money -- not an exact quote but something close to it.

I know they aren't going to take the league down, what I'm worried about is the 15 yard penalty my team gets because of some bullshit call, I think its nonsense. Like I said in the beginning "don't get me wrong, I'm not crying for Jerry Jones," its not about their money, I could really give a shit. Owning an NFL team is pretty much a "led-pipe lock" because of the shared revenue system. You'd have to be a complete asshole to go broke. Was the Conte hit helmet to helmet? Sure it was, do I care? No, it was a glancing blow at best and didn't have any effect on the game.

Oh by the way, being a big guy myself, let me tell you guys something --> yes we can stop if we want to, our momentum doesn't carry us 3 steps into a guy (unless we get pushed from behind like Izzy did), most of the time you could stop or not hit the guy if you really wanted to. But who the hell would do that? I mean really, the whole point is to show the QB how close you were, let him know you are right there and you will plaster his butt to the ground. You think a guy as athletic as Pepp can't stop? You would be wrong sir, he just wants to send a message and at the same time doesn't want to spend the energy to get out of the way. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Soul I'm sorry to hear about your troubles brother, I don't know what thats like personally so I don't really know what to say. But keep fighting. I'm rooting for ya bud!

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Oh mines treatable and under control MM or I probably wouldn't be around any longer either but there were those momentary temptations. :4_14_4[1]: There were times when it wasn't and in those days I was seldom here or anywhere else in the world of daily living. I may have to live knowing it's not ever gonna go away but it's not due to any brain injuries like some of these guys have had. Where some of them are headed, like Alex Karras most recently, is frightening.

I don't put much stock in what Mac has to say nor do I believe it reflects the attitude of all of those guys. The NFL won't give in to it easily anyway. The way they investigate things they probably know more about every party to that lawsuit then those guys know about themselves. Jimmy's beer drinking and hell raising won't help in getting him a lot of sympathy either. Their case may be weak but it's not totally frivolous either.

They have a case but what the true merits of it are we only know from what we see and read in the press. The rest we don't and even if it continues to get tried in the press that's not who'll be the final judge or jury. They see the big money being paid to today's stars and they feel like they helped that to happen so they want some consideration for services rendered long after they've stopped rendering them. The permanent injury route is just about the only way they can pursue that. I'm not judging whether it's right or wrong only that I can see where they're going with it and why.

The rules changes are mostly bogus as far as I'm concerned anyway. That's about money too. Owner's have to pay big $$$ to QBs and WRs so they want them protected. Where are the flags for hitting a defenseless player when it's an OLineman that get's tagged after the whistle like Carimi did in the Rams game? Haha NFL, those guys don't get protection do they but are they any less defenseless and aren't they just as subject to incurring and injury from it?

"Well yeah, but we don't pay them as much so it's OK". The league isn't fooling anyone. Not really.

Moving KO's up to eliminate injuries????? LMFAO! The only way it limits injuries is by limiting returns which then prevent the haves with the good return man like the Bears from taking unfair advantage of the have nots.
Buying into the NFL's bullshit about that would be like auto manufacturers doing nothing to make cars safer except asking us to drive less in order to prevent injuries and deaths. Maybe the rest of the world buys their crap but I don't.

The rules also need more clarification even for the refs sake. Intentional helmet to helmet contact should be penalized but if it's incidental and/or unintentional then no. It's a contact sport and pieces of one players protective gear are gonna come in contact with anothers from time to time. Me, I'd rather get bumped on the noggin than to get my nuts crushed. With my brain it might even help. Kind of an alternative to electro-shock therapy, LOL. :drooling:

It's gone to extremes in some cases, I agree, but I don't think the lawsuits have as much to do with it as we're led to believe. That's the owners propaganda talking. They lose a guy they have to pay him anyway and then pay another guy to replace him. Now that runs far more along the lines of their way of thinking than a law suit. They have all kinds of your legal kin on retainer to handle that stuff. To them it's just the cost of doing business and they'd rather pay tens of millions in legal fees than to give it up to a player from the past they have no current use for. It's just the way they think MM and it's not that hard to figure out when you follow their logic or lack thereof for awhile. The replacement refs were just the last example of it.

The only thing that really unnerves them is the possibility of government intervention into their little enterprise. Just like the robber barons of old they have a nice little monopoly they don't want messed with. Of course government intervention into almost anything should worry most of us. Most days they could fuck up a one car parade.
:drinking61:

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Originally Posted by soulman

The only thing that really unnerves them is the possibility of government intervention into their little enterprise. Just like the robber barons of old they have a nice little monopoly they don't want messed with. Of course government intervention into almost anything should worry most of us. Most days they could fuck up a one car parade.
:drinking61:

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Lol you F*&$er! a "one car parade," I'm using that one, stealing it shamelessly. Yup, no doubt its about the money, they have a gold mine going here and they don't want to f$#^ it up. You and I both know they could give a crap about player safety.

I want to talk about the replacement refs for a second. Was that not the stupidest thing in the world? How could they let something so stupid get in the way of selling us a product? Its like buying a car from a car salesman and the salesman lets it come down to whether or not he throws in the floor mats for free. He says no and you walk away! He just lost a sale over 100 dollar floor matts. I'm not shitting you this happened to me when i bought my first car. Can you believe that? The ref thing was the same deal. How can you let this bullshit get in the way? Everyone is making so much god damn money here and the fans don't even give a shit that you are running away with their money.

"JUST GIMME DA CANDY DAD I DONT CARE ABOUT WHAT IT COSTS!"

"no son, you cant have the candy, how about this nice rice cake instead?"

"ITS HALLOWEEN DAD WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU OLD MAN GIMME DA CANDY!"

(ok i tried to throw a halloween twist in there. you know what I'm getting at here. Give us the candy, fuck the refs, pay 'em)

In the words if the immortal John Malkovic: "Pay this man his money... PAY HIM."