Thread: Bears Question Personal Foul Calls on Izzy and Conte............

I missed the call against Izzy but the one against Conte was a terrible call.

First of all there was no helmet to helmet contact. The replay proved that. Second it was LaFells own momentum which carried him into Conte. Conte absorbed the hit with his shoulder pads not the crown of his helmet.

It was just a matter of two players coming together hard at the end of a play. La Fell couldn't stop his momentum and Conte had to brace for the collision between the two. He had a right to contact with him as he was going down. There's no way he could have avoided it.

Hopefully the league will look at that and correct the interpretation of the rule about hitting a defenseless player. I can see the need for a rule about it but the intent of the rule wasn't to prevent a hit like that. The first flag the threw and then picked up was much closer to a violation than the one they actually flagged.

Originally Posted by motownbear

how about if players just sign damn waivers to play the game so that we can move on from this nonsense of "over protecting" players.......Just saying dont let the threat of the court system ruin this game.

Right on the money again motown, sign waivers and move on. High school kids have to, college kids have to, pros should have to. No one is under the illusion that this game is safe. Just like boxing, you see muhammad ali? You hear him crying about it and wishing he could take it all back? Hell no, you couldn't have stopped him if you wanted to.

Vicious plays and intentional injuring of players is wrong and should result in huge fines and banning. But plays like we are discussing here are clean and shouldn't even be a topic.

I truly believe that the problem is coming from the guys that played in the 60's, 70's, and 80's that are now broke (like Jim Mcman) and are looking for a handout from the NFL. They are pissed off that they didn't make the money that even some of the lowest paid players make today. They are pissed off that the league was making so much damn money in those years and the players didn't see much of it. they think they got screwed.... and they are right, they did get screwed. But that doesn't mean the league needs to start cashing checks for their asses because they are broke now.

The NFL does more for its players than any of my jobs ever have. I left one job on bad terms and the best I got was basically "don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out." I'm an attorney btw, I had to sue that same company for my accrued vacation/sick days etc. (actually pretty common thing in the law world). I don't see the NFL treating its players like that. Between the pension they have and the insurance they have, most of us would be lucky to have the same benefits. Its a screw job by the old-timers and they are f#$%ing up todays game. Spit on those greedy bastards, go work at Wal-Mart as a greeter or something like the rest of America

The game was built on the backs of those guys you call greedy bastards MM and if you were the one representing them your tune would change brother. Most of those guys didn't make in ten years of playing what a top player makes in one year today. As much as George Halas or Pete Rozelle or anyone else those guys helped build this league into what it is today.

The game is even faster and more violent today than it ever was so I can't quarrel with the need to for some rules to provide protection against severe injury but maybe the officials need a little better training in how to interpret those rules. It seems to me that there are too many roughing the passer calls that are nothing more than what would have been a clean hit almost simultaneous to the release of the ball ten years ago.

The laws of physics deny a 270-300lb Dlineman the ability just stop his charge in one step or halt his flight in mid air so there needs to be a little more use of judgement involved before just dropping a flag when a hit takes place on the QB after that ball has left his hand. Same with a call like the one on Conte. He's 100% right when he asks "what did they want me to do"?

Both players momentum was carrying them towards one another and you can't stop a collision from happening once that's happening. He pulled his helmet up and away from LaFell and hit him with his shoulder. That was the best he could do unless he became able to magically disappear from that place at that moment in time and that only happens in Harry Potter movies.

Besides all this crap about protecting players from injury just for humanitarian purposes is all horseshit anyway. It's about money and it always has been. How much did owners worry about that crap before there was a salary cap and before players started making millions a year as opposed to $50-$100k? A guy making $5 mil per year get his whole $5 mil if he gets hurt and can't play. Not only that but the team now has to spend $700k or more additional $$$ signing a guy to replace him. That's the minimum for a four year vet.

Players are an owners depreciable asset. He gets to write them off as a tax deduction against his profits. So what's the definition of a depreciable asset? Something that will be used up, deteriorate over time, and lose value. That fits the description of an NFL players career pretty well doesn't it. To the owner they are simply a piece of machinery used to make a profit that will wear out over time and need to be replaced. Pro footballs version of a machine shop lathe.

It's a joke to say that most owners have any real concern for their players beyond what their monetary investment in them means to them personally. They think of their own bank accounts first and every thing else is secondary to that. Some are far worse than others but in the end it's all about the same thing. Make as much profit as you can for as long as you can. Players be damned the sovereignty of the NFL must prevail at all costs.

Yeah MM there are greedy bastards around the NFL all over the place but those must be the owners you're talking about aren't you?

I know those old timers are used to being celebrities and wouldn't take a job being a starter at a golf course or being a greeter at Wal-mart like many older/retired/elderly people in the USA do. I know that if these guys really wanted to make a difference about player safety they would lobby for current players rather than sue the NFL like they are. McMan flat out said in an interview that he's part of a class action suing the NFL because he and his contemporaries are broke. They'll probably try to go all the way with the damn thing when they should settle and in the end they'll ruin the product for me and future generations. So I guess you could say I'm greedy too, I want my football.

I don't care how much they made back then, they were well paid. Even at 50,000 a year they should be fine. 50,000 to 100,000 in the 60's, 70's, and 80's makes you a top earner. Its not the NFL's fault if you don't have a way to make a life for yourself after football. Every other adult in the world has to make a life for themselves. They have player pensions and free insurance (not to mention social security on top of that pension), if that isn't enough help then I don't know what to tell you.

Football players are nothing like depreciable assets, they are one of a kind and they are here today, gone tomorrow. Depreciable assets can be counted on for a readily determinable useful life, discarded, and easily replaced. Look at all the risk involved in paying these guys, who was that dude a couple of years ago for the Raiders... that QB that was supposed to be Jesus and he held out and they ended up paying him a ridiculous signing bonus? That kind of crap happens all the time. There's no insurance for these owners, if they make bad moves they are out a lot of money. Not to say I cry for Jerry Jones at night either.

Make them sign a waiver and move on, if they don't want to play then get a day job.

Edit: Jamarcuss Russel was the guys name, 32 million guaranteed as a rookie contract

Well first of all you couldn't even get me to work for those rat bastards who run Walmart. They wouldn't want me anyway because I'd be handing out hand bills to everyone who walked through the door letting them know just how poorly they treat the employees that will soon be serving them. I'd get fired in my first hour.

So let's table that OK?

I'm sure your JD and the fact that you passed your bar exam and have a license to practice law in the courts of our fair land over qualify you for a post like that too. These guys have marketable skills. They're employable and despite what McMahon says few of them are truly broke. I don't see many of them in line for a free meal or living in a homeless shelter. Broke is a very relative term when you're talking about guys who made millions in their NFL careers.

The NFL is doing something about current player safety so it's their complaints about how very well it was ignored in the past that's what this is all about. How much did they know and when did they know it? How long was that knowledge ignored before the NFL took action. You're and attorney. Add it up. They have a case and a good one if they can prove that the NFL willingly ignored the dangers for years and eventually we'll all find that out unless it is settled and a non-disclosure agreed upon.

I think both you and I know that a monetary settlement is what they're after. Why destroy the NFL itself. Then where would the settlement monies come from? Can't draw water from an empty well. That being the case I'd say this statement is pure nonsense. Furthermore it's totally selfish thinking and this wouldn't be your position if you represented them would it? You've sort of skirted my questions related to that and substituted answers I never asked for.

They'll probably try to go all the way with the damn thing when they should settle and in the end they'll ruin the product for me and future generations.

So just answer the questions I ask counselor. Tell me why in your opinion they wouldn't settle. If you were their attorney that's exactly what you'd be shooting for. Nobody really wins in court least of all the attorneys who actually have to work for their fee instead of just collecting one for negotiating the deal. Yeah, I realize that's taking a pot shot at your profession but it's not unwarranted or completely undeserved. I didn't just get off the boat yesterday and I've been through more than my fair share of civil actions on behalf of my clients too not to mention having to launch a few lawsuits of my own.

And I love this one; I don't care how much they made back then, they were well paid. Even at 50,000 a year they should be fine. 50,000 to 100,000 in the 60's, 70's, and 80's makes you a top earner.

Being kind of judgmental here aren't we? That and a little confused as far as your application of mathematics. $50k in 1960 would be a fortunate income to have indeed but in 1980 it would be pretty much middle income. In 1982 I made around $35k. Certainly no great fortune that would have permitted me to become financially independent just because of it.

As I recall there was a time when attorneys worked for less than $100 per hour too. I remember paying around $70 per hour years ago. What do you get these days MM and should we all sit here and criticize how much you make? And since when does simply getting an insurer to cough up $10k to settle a claim for a fender bender with some minor injuries entitle you and your brethren to $3k to $4k just for making a few phone calls and filing some paperwork threatening a lawsuit?

And when was the last time you sustained multiple concussions while butting head with opposing counsel? Get any permanently crippling knee or hip injuries from opening courtroom doors anytime during your career? Eye strain from reading and devising "small print" I can see but that can be remedied with some readers like I use. I've never seen it cause permanent blindness.

If you lost your license to practice law what would be your "day job" of choice? Would you be handing me a shopping cart and wishing me a nice day when I walked through the doors of my local Walmart or bagging my groceries at Safeway?

My reference to players as being depreceable assets is correct. I'm talking about tax law here not your personal opinion of them. I guess that's not a legal specialty of yours. Player contracts are depreciated over time just like football helmets and shoulder pads. Here's your own statement to confirm that.

Depreciable assets can be counted on for a readily determinable useful life, discarded, and easily replaced.

I'd say it's pretty damn easy to determine what the average career of an NFL player is and the IRS agrees with me. And when a football players career is over isn't he discarded and just as easily replaced as a broken helmet or worn out set of shoulder pads? They are depreceable assets, trust me.

I'd say that's a lot of what any lawsuit the old timers bring is all about. They were used up and discarded just like those pieces of equipment but they're different. They're alive and human and they have to go on and live out the rest of their lives in pain or do what a few have done and end theirs.

You bring up the example of just one overpaid former high draft pick and you want to use that as an example to umbrella all of the thousands of guys who never got a pay check like that? Sorry objection overruled counselor. Highly irrelevant. Stick to the mainstream here.

Of course owners take a risk handing out big bonuses to rookies. Why do you think they negotiated themselves out of that position in this last CBA and put limitations on themselves in that regard. They can't even police their own overspending without legislating it. It's also the reason they get those tax deductions MM. It's called being "At Risk" and that's the basis for it in tax law. Certain things can be expensed and other must be depreciated. They're businessmen not hobbyists.

Look the bottom line is that those former players have a case if they can prove the NFL knew about the long term effects of head injuries they may have sustained while playing yet insisted they play anyway in order to get paid and still did little or nothing to prevent further injury. There are other risky professions but for the most part those guys have OSHA to protect them.

If you're an attorney you can pretty easily evaluate the merits of their complaint if I can. Somewhere down the line it comes to judgement day either in or out of court and somebody wins a little and somebody else loses a little. That's the way it works isn't it? They're not gonna put the NFL under so I wouldn't worry about having our game taken away from us. Not gonna happen.

I just think that one anyone mentions the word "greed" in the same sentence with an NFL player that if that same person doesn't also include the NFL owners then they're ignoring half the issue. It's more than just a sport. It's big business and sometimes big business gets sued. Happens every day. I haven't seen Apple or MS go under from any of theirs yet and and neither will the NFL.

MM, I'd like to go up against you in court some day. I think I could beat you.

Originally Posted by 4th and 26

Wow the regular officials are making shitty calls, who would have ever guessed it. lol

Whoa! Penalty marker down. That's 15 yards for bringing up a dead issue.

Do that once more and you'll get fined and suspended for one game.