What we learned

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Originally Posted by bearsinhouston

MP -- Agreed. I actually think we are both on the same thought process here. What i was referring to was more of a drill down than the bigger picture. Cutty can fire the ball quick. Remember when the protection was so horrendous that he literally didn't have much more time than to get the ball in his hands on some plays? We were all wishing that he could just get a little time. I know many of us (and I am included) thought that if they could just get a LITTLE time, he could make things happen. Well, he got more than a little in several games and it made no difference. Not all on Cutty -- he made some bad throws, maybe some bad decisions, players dropped balls, plays were called and protection was such that it was easier to cover our WRs, but the assumption that all Cutler needed was a little time is not holding up with me any more.

It's more systemic than that. Why are the WR's dropping more than usual? Extending the inability to catch -- why cand any of our TE's hold onto a ball? Is there a common denominator in either training, a trainer, attitude, whatever... Someone needs to get down to root cause. it's not just once, and it is across the board.

The protection, I understand. We have a barely adequate group there. I am actually surprised Cutler is not gatting hammered more than he is. If we had plenty of time for Cutler in every game, would we have an explosive offense? I've seen some glimpses and I'm not as sure as I was before. That's all I'm saying.

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I hear ya man. My take is that--and I'm not excusing Cutler entirely, he has made some bad & forced throws--our QB is a guy who likes to push the envelope. He isn't the type who's gonna play it safe. He is going to make throws expecting his receivers to make plays. They haven't (outside of BM of course) pretty much all year long. The pass pro -- run blocking too -- has been terrible most of the time and in just a few games its been decent (with the caveats I mentioned earlier). That's just not an adequate sample size to judge "what could be" if it was CONSISTENTLY GOOD. It's sort of like saying to cutler: "I know you're terrified for your life most of the time but in those few you aren't, why didn't you do something amazing on those?"

I don't think we can judge the offense's potential fairly until the OL is reliably better. That has to be Emery's FIRST PRIORITY this offseason.

As for the receivers themselves, well it's been a cluster fuck out there. My takes is this.

Marshall: No doubt the best WR talent to ever play in a bears uni in my lifetime. He has had some drops sure but in the broad context of his many targets and great catches made (that never would have been made in years past) his miscues are trivial. He is one of the top 5 in the NFL especially with the connection clearly shares with Jay and the fact that he's really grown up with regard to his former off-field issues. Brilliant move for cheap by Emery.

Jeffery: I love this kid and its too bad he's been injured so much this year. He's going to be a star with a Cutler who is protected. No doubt in my mind. Great pick by Emery and I think time will prove him to the best WR of his draft class. Better than Blackmon, better than Floyd, better than Hill or Wright. He could/should have caught that TD pass on the broken play last weekend, but ill give the rook a pass.

Damn I'll be excited to see what these two can do next year if Emery can upgrade the OL this offseason like he did the flanker position last one.

Bennett: Been disappointed in his production this year but I blame most of it on injury and tice's stupid over-targeting of others rather than Earl. He's a very good #3 man and a very sure handed possession guy. His wide open drop against Seattle sucked, but that's a play he makes 99% ofa the time he isn't concussed and staring right into the sun (I was there and the sun came out bright for 10 ,minutes all day, at the perfect angle to jack up that play). He's a keeper.

After that, the pass receiving talent level drops off like a sheer cliff. Between Davis, Spaeth, Adams, Hester, Weems, and Sanz, there isn't a single plausible "good 4th option". Bad route running, inability to get open, bad hands, too small, lack of speed...it's all there is various combinations with these guys. Since Alshon, Bennett, or both have been out so many individual games this year, you can see the problem. There has been no "next guy up" like Green Bay has in Jones and Cobb and Finley.

Upgrade the OL first, get an OC who also involves Forte and maybe ERod in the passing game, and then if possible find a 4th TE/WR receiving option. I'd be shocked if Cutler and the offense wasn't explosive next year under those circumstances.

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Originally Posted by soulman

LOL, let's not even bother. The glow is off Cam Cameron as well. Fired from his HC job after a very short stay and now let go by the Ravens before the season is even over. I'll pass.

We have a guy who has been tried and tested as a play caller and de facto OC who knows the game and two of his best players capabilities very well. It's only the fact that so far Lovie has failed to use him and left Tice to sink or swim along with the fortunes of this season that's kept him in second position.

We already have a new OC under contract. We just need to promote him and my guess is that's exactly what will happen this offseason. My guess is Lovie will get to live out his contract and Bates will be handed the offense and the right to hire some of his own staff.

The farther removed Lovie is from having any say whatsoever in that offense the better off we are. This should be the reverse of what happened when Halas hired Ditka. Buddy Ryan as DC went with the job of Bears HC and Halas made no bones about it.

Now Emery needs to force a change in how this team is being handled at the HC level. Lovie, Marinelli and that crew have full say over the defense but Jeremy Bates gets to run the offense and has one year to get the job done with no interference from Lovie at all.

If we're gonna keep Lovie around this is the only way it has a prayer of working. Lovie is not an offensive schemer, he can't contribute anything useful on that side of the ball and he can't even hire an OC who can put together a half way decent offense. So bifurcate those responsibilities and let Bates do what he can to resurrect some kind of offense from the heap Tice has created.

It's the only chance we have that things might improve in 2013. If Emery isn't gonna do that then he might just as well fire Lovie after the season is over and start to rebuild. One more year of things being run as they are now won't change the results and we still won't have a championship team.

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Soul, are you suggesting keeping Lovie as a last-year-lame-duck HC?

Who's going to want to be OC or OC-staff knowing the HC is a lame duck likely to be replaced by a new guy who's gong to want all "his guys" in underneath him?

Bates sucked at Sea, I don't want him having carte blanch here. Bring in a great O mind to be HC, if he decides bates is the best for Cutty more power to him. Then bring in a DC to run the D side of the ball.

QUOTE=MPBears68

Soul, are you suggesting keeping Lovie as a last-year-lame-duck HC?

Who's going to want to be OC or OC-staff knowing the HC is a lame duck likely to be replaced by a new guy who's gong to want all "his guys" in underneath him?

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Originally Posted by Riczaj01

Bates sucked at Sea, I don't want him having carte blanch here. Bring in a great O mind to be HC, if he decides bates is the best for Cutty more power to him. Then bring in a DC to run the D side of the ball.

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Ric you need to drop that line about Bates and Seattle. He and Carroll has strong disagreements on how that offense was to be run and it was a tug of war neither won on the field. Carroll won in the end because he was the boss.

(might be interesting to note that what Bates wanted to run required a mobile QB and what Seattle is running is the offense Bates devised while he was there. RW is making that offense work big time)

Look at what Bates did in Denver when he had Cutler, Marshall, Eddie Royal and a HC who cooperated and worked with him as opposed to against him. He was the play caller and de facto OC for the 3rd highest ranked offense in the NFL.

I'd say regardless of whether he does that well again or not anything he does will be a damn site better than being ranked 31st! Stop with that Seattle shit. It's a very weak argument and you can't make it without mentioning the flip side in Denver, and you never do.

Here's the point Ric and MP has it right. If Lovie stays on without an extension then the only guy you'll be able to get as OC is a guy you already have under contract for 2013 and that's Bates. So in all likelihood it's Lovie/HC, Marinelli/DC, Bates/OC and Toub/STC if Lovie stays. If not it's anyone's guess who the next regime will be so it's not worth the time and effort to even make a guess yet.

Let's see how it plays out but one thing is for certain. If Lovie is retained in 2013 then he needs to be kept as far away from that offense and any offensive decision making relative to personnel, game planning and play calling as is humanly possible. The man simply doesn't have a clue when it comes to that side of the ball. So give Bates all he needs to succeed and if he doesn't everyone will be gone after 2013 anyway.

There's really not much to be risked in doing that and everything to be gained.

He also had Shanahan to help him in Den, sorry at most Bates is as much of a ? as Tice was. AND Bates was brought in this year to help install the passing game, so he is at least partially culpible for the disaster that is this O, as he was in Sea at least partially culpible.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/tag...e/jeremy-bates

And here is one issue I still don't get:

Earlier this season, we noted the Bears hadn't established an offensive identity. Other than Cutler's connection to Marshall, it wasn't easy to come up with a long list of things the Bears do well offensively. After Week 14, that's still the case. They rank No. 18 in the NFL in yards per carry (4.2), No. 27 in passing yards per game and No. 28 in scoring. At the end of this season, whenever that comes, we'll have to ask whether the Bears' preseason plan to mesh their former scheme, Tice's philosophies and the ideas of quarterbacks coach Jeremy Bates all into one offense was too complicated a task.


Just as Bates wasn't the only one making the O in Den, or in Sea, he wasn't here, but the only difference in the 3 is that he had a pro offensive genious in Den to help him set it up, he doesn't have that here.

Again, get a new HC, that is an offensive mind, in here, if he decides Bates can stay, well more power to him, and I'll be behind it 100%. But I want the HC to be the guy behind the O, not Bates or anyone else currently on this staff.

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Originally Posted by purplejokr

​What is the common denominator here?

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Worst OL in the NFL and lame ass Lovie lovie buddies running the offense.

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Originally Posted by Riczaj01

He also had Shanahan to help him in Den, sorry at most Bates is as much of a ? as Tice was. AND Bates was brought in this year to help install the passing game, so he is at least partially culpible for the disaster that is this O, as he was in Sea at least partially culpible.

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Ric, Bates ran that offense when he was here with Cutler and Marshall in it and once again Marshall is having a record setting All Pro year in Chicago playing with Cutler again and if the line could protect him and any other WR or TE could contribute like Marshall has then Cutler's numbers would look much better too.

The passing game here is far better now than it ever has been in the past and Bates in one of the reasons why. If Bennett wasn't always injured and Bates had Eddie Royal as #2 instead of Devin Hester Cutler would have had far more completions than he's had. The Cutler/Marshall connection works well and that's all Bates.

Here's my other issue with you about this. I watched every single game Bates coached here. How many Seattle games have you ever watched that weren't against the Bears? Once again you get an idea in your head based largely on some meaningless info that doesn't relate to the here and now and you cling to it like it was your baby blanket. It's a weak argument Ric because it happened without the two weapons he has again and he's proven already he knows how to use them.

Look, the bottom line is that if Lovie isn't given and extension after this season than Bates is about the only guy we'll be able to get that has a successful track record as an OC anyway. No one else will come to Chicago on a one year deal so get used to it. If Lovie stays then Bates will most likely become the OC.

PS: What I think is really bizarre about you position is that we may well have the worst OC in the NFL right now running one of if not the worst offense in terms of scoring output and you want to argue that Bates couldn't be an improvement. WTF would we have to lose Ric?

The problem is that is the only weapon whoever is calling the shots thinks we have. I don't care how good Marshall is, he can get hurt, and teams have stopped him by putting a huge focus on him.

The offense has to run as a unit. There are people that are actually paid to take the ball and run with it. They should try that every once in a while. Also, other people are out there running routes. They can be used to catch the ball (ok, so they actually have to hang onto it...) and if nothing else take the pressure off of Marshall. We have to use the weapons that we have. If they can't come up with an offense that considers all the parts, then they are not ready for the NFL. There are less complex offenses to run.

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Originally Posted by soulman

Ric, Bates ran that offense when he was here with Cutler and Marshall in it and once again Marshall is having a record setting All Pro year in Chicago playing with Cutler again and if the line could protect him and any other WR or TE could contribute like Marshall has then Cutler's numbers would look much better too.

The passing game here is far better now than it ever has been in the past and Bates in one of the reasons why. If Bennett wasn't always injured and Bates had Eddie Royal as #2 instead of Devin Hester Cutler would have had far more completions than he's had. The Cutler/Marshall connection works well and that's all Bates.

Here's my other issue with you about this. I watched every single game Bates coached here. How many Seattle games have you ever watched that weren't against the Bears? Once again you get an idea in your head based largely on some meaningless info that doesn't relate to the here and now and you cling to it like it was your baby blanket. It's a weak argument Ric because it happened without the two weapons he has again and he's proven already he knows how to use them.

Look, the bottom line is that if Lovie isn't given and extension after this season than Bates is about the only guy we'll be able to get that has a successful track record as an OC anyway. No one else will come to Chicago on a one year deal so get used to it. If Lovie stays then Bates will most likely become the OC.

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Hate to say it, but I could see Soul's scenario playing out because it would save the McCaskeys from having to eat Lovie's 2013 salary and pay someone else to be HC. The only other lost cost would be whatever Tice is promised for next year but Bates could be OC/QB-coach so that would probably be insignificant.

Its rare in the NFL for a HC to take the field as a lame duck without an extension in hand. But I suppose he would agree to emerys terms for "one more chance" to save his job long term.

Either way it's goofy. If Bates is "running the passing game" then Tice should have had the stones to pull him. If he didn't he's incompetent. If Bates really is the man he'll get tossed too. Who can do anything behind this trainwreck line manufactured by Tice? Bill Walsh couldn't do crap behind this mess.

If Tice is stubborn enough to give us the likes of Webb, Rachal, have a myopic view of the offense, and then it takes multiple injuries to see change and hints of improvement I think it's safe to say that stubborn hammerhead is in charge. Either that or his head swallowed that pencil and Farber-Castell is in charge of the clipboard.