Thread: Question for the O-Line watchers...

Originally Posted by bearsinhouston

And with his injury, Louis is a possible replacement also.

I thought that too. He may come back fine, but that's not a given. We're going to need 4 starters for sure. Maybe even 5 if Louis can't play at his previous level due to the injury. It's looking like Carimii may be another Jerry Angelo bust. He looks pathetic at guard AND tackle.

Originally Posted by Rakk

Maybe some of you guys that are smart on Offensive line play can answer. What is, in your opinion, our main problem?

Are our players just lacking in talent compared to the average pro lineman, or is there something wrong with their technique as a group?

To be this horribly bad year in and year out makes you wonder just what the main problem is, and how to fix.

I am no expert Rakk, but O-Line is my specialty if an armchair guy can have a specialty. At least it's my major interest.

1. It is really hard to tell what the problem is consistently for two reasons; A. None of us have any way of knowing what the individual blocking assignments are for a particular play, so it's damn near impossible to have any MEANINGFUL evaluation of the O-Line as a whole and B. Television coverage is not ideal for watching the technicalities of the O-Line. It is often too bunched up and it is often just impossible to see what's really going on in there.

2. With #1 in mind, there are some plays, especially in pass blocking, sweeps, screens, and other plays where guys are spread out that you can get a better feel for what's going on, especially Tackles and Tight Ends as they are on the outside and easier to see.


My general opinion is changing ever so slightly about what is going on. First of all, we do need a new Center; Roberto has done an admirable job in the middle as a solid, but aging ver trying to keep this group somewhat cohesive, but he's getting real long in the tooth. I think Lewis is OK, and my not be able to find many starting jobs anywhere else, but he's one of OUR better players. We need a real LG and he ain't on the roster. Out two Tackles (Webb and Carimi) should, by all accounts, be better than they are in terms of physical tools and the success they both had in college. Webb, may finally be coming along, but until recently, he would be the first one thrown out to me.

With all that said, the question is "What is the problem". First, I really don't think the talent is there across the board, so that is part of the problem, but the more I watch them, the more I'm starting to think its technique and discipline. If you watch these guys, they look completely gassed by the second half, and unfortunately they really don't play that much. They start to lose their balance/technique quite early in the game and there doesn't seem to be any cohesion to the scheme. Have you noticed those times where our O-Line looks like they are just throwing their bodies around and looking desperate? That's one of two things, either the scheme they have been taught is not effective against the defense they are facing or they are not staying disciplined within the scheme. They are playing like 5 individuals instead of one unit. I understand Tice is supposed to be a highly regarded O-Line coach, but have we seen an O-Line that was even considered "average" since he's been here? We got rid of Williams, who admittedly was not the LT that we hoped he would be, but he was a pretty decent LG last year (when healthy), Carimi SHOULD be better than he's showing, so who knows if he knee is not that healthy or he needs real coaching. Our Center is a converted Guard and one of our Guards (Spencer) was a converted Center. Webb should be much better given his physical attributes, but even he is not near as athletic as has been billed by the coaching staff.

In conclusion, I think the real problem is that our talent is either old, green or non-existent combined with inadequate coaching/discipline gives us what we now have. I do believe we could get much better quickly with as few as 2 new pieces and a good scheme and good coaching.

Well from my experience and what I can see it is hard to tell since none of us know the schemes

BUT I hate to say it but a lot looks like a lack of coaching and discipline

Flase starts-coaching
Inability to react to a stunt-coaching

Other than that center IMO should be as big if not a bigger concern than any other position, alot of our inability to get to the second level falls on garza (like I said we don't know schemes so no way to be sure)

Obviously we can't replace 5 guys in one year I do think that we focus tackle in FA and the best gaurd and or center in round one or two barring T'eo being available

On my honest opinion OC and OG are hurting is more than our tackles (after Louis went down) I say this because

Our inability to punch jack shit in, or run inside at all....what I see is a bunch of overmatched guys inside starting with our aging center. Usual situations our problem is no soul on the line is touching anyone past level one who run free and make plays for minimal gains. In a usual situation (again none of us know for certain) I would assume that we have some kind of combo block from the most interior down linemen (1-3) to the interior or backside linebacker (00-30) assuming we have someone to account for the play side backer

In most instances with no line pulling that would essentially mean the gaurd
is on level one and our C is "post and peeling" to the backer

Well that's a great idea except our center instead just "posts and gets mauled" so we waste two on one (incredibly with still no push) and forte gets killed

When this block fails its on no one person, but we clearly need improvement to get to level two or we will never be successful

Another thing I notice is we run a lot of power plays with the backside gaurd pulling into b or c and leading, and Rachel was actually good at that but seemly everyone else is utterly pathedict and usually don't even make it to the hole let alone block anyone (I've seen a few running into our other gaurd who's getting his ass kicked multiple times)

In pass pro it is very deceiving because in most cases you have a 3 on 2 inside since we keep help in on outside blitz packages but what I see is that even when our outside pro takes a shit in front of our eyes our interior guys are unable to get a stalemate and leave a lane to step up into or even allow cutler a line of sight

Realistically I think that RG is first priority then C and then if we still have options available we can look for a LT (big FA avail. Obviously void this as third priority)

With this in mind I think Carimi gets another shot in camp/Pre season at RT (keep in mind he's basically a rookie) simply because he does have potential AND we can't find 5 new starters in one offseason

With this said we need 1-2 FAs and 1-2 picks within first 3 rounds IMO to equal 3 quality players in the best manner we can muster up

I'm conclusion from what crappu broadcast angles we get I think a major adress is needed inside and first, tackle actually being second, to equal 3 quality players. Due to the sheer number of needs for one offseason we will have to hope for Carimi to get his shit together with an injury free offseason and pray Louis comes back okay in order to have a revamped oline. If our right side can't get it together than the final stage of the revamp will have to be the following year to end up with 5 new starters

Just my 2 cents from what my experience is relating to what I'm seeing (yes i may be a bit biased I played C and now coach C/G specifically)

Hope I didn't bore anyone lol

Originally Posted by 4DaBERS

I am no expert Rakk, but O-Line is my specialty if an armchair guy can have a specialty. At least it's my major interest.

1. It is really hard to tell what the problem is consistently for two reasons; A. None of us have any way of knowing what the individual blocking assignments are for a particular play, so it's damn near impossible to have any MEANINGFUL evaluation of the O-Line as a whole and B. Television coverage is not ideal for watching the technicalities of the O-Line. It is often too bunched up and it is often just impossible to see what's really going on in there.

2. With #1 in mind, there are some plays, especially in pass blocking, sweeps, screens, and other plays where guys are spread out that you can get a better feel for what's going on, especially Tackles and Tight Ends as they are on the outside and easier to see.


My general opinion is changing ever so slightly about what is going on. First of all, we do need a new Center; Roberto has done an admirable job in the middle as a solid, but aging ver trying to keep this group somewhat cohesive, but he's getting real long in the tooth. I think Lewis is OK, and my not be able to find many starting jobs anywhere else, but he's one of OUR better players. We need a real LG and he ain't on the roster. Out two Tackles (Webb and Carimi) should, by all accounts, be better than they are in terms of physical tools and the success they both had in college. Webb, may finally be coming along, but until recently, he would be the first one thrown out to me.

With all that said, the question is "What is the problem". First, I really don't think the talent is there across the board, so that is part of the problem, but the more I watch them, the more I'm starting to think its technique and discipline. If you watch these guys, they look completely gassed by the second half, and unfortunately they really don't play that much. They start to lose their balance/technique quite early in the game and there doesn't seem to be any cohesion to the scheme. Have you noticed those times where our O-Line looks like they are just throwing their bodies around and looking desperate? That's one of two things, either the scheme they have been taught is not effective against the defense they are facing or they are not staying disciplined within the scheme. They are playing like 5 individuals instead of one unit. I understand Tice is supposed to be a highly regarded O-Line coach, but have we seen an O-Line that was even considered "average" since he's been here? We got rid of Williams, who admittedly was not the LT that we hoped he would be, but he was a pretty decent LG last year (when healthy), Carimi SHOULD be better than he's showing, so who knows if he knee is not that healthy or he needs real coaching. Our Center is a converted Guard and one of our Guards (Spencer) was a converted Center. Webb should be much better given his physical attributes, but even he is not near as athletic as has been billed by the coaching staff.

In conclusion, I think the real problem is that our talent is either old, green or non-existent combined with inadequate coaching/discipline gives us what we now have. I do believe we could get much better quickly with as few as 2 new pieces and a good scheme and good coaching.

That is a great assessment. The only thing I'd add is that we probably need more than 2 new pieces, IMHO. Maybe get a solid LT in free agency if possible. Add 2 interior linemen in the top 4 rounds of the draft (I know, we don't have a 3rd round pick this coming year). Then bring in a couple of additional FA guys to training camp too (not blue chippers, but guys who are a step above our dead-beats). Weed out the wannabees and keep the best of this group to be our starters. Set the starting oline early in camp and let those guys learn to be a unit. Gel in August - not December. Don't be switching players to play out of position during the season. If your #1 gets hurt, then next man up AT THAT POSITION. Flip flopping guys out of position during the season is madness. You simply can't win if you do this.

Roll with these guys.

We need an oline coach and OC who actually know their butt from a hole in the ground.