Thread: Question for the O-Line watchers...

I think 4DaBers really nailed it. One thing I kept hearing was the "simplification" of the o-line scheme. Easier to learn for the football I.Q. challenged like Webb but also as easy if not more so for the opponent with higher football I.Q. Would love to be a fly on the wall when the opponents film room scouts the protection and scheme.

I really hope that the "road grater' theory is put to rest that it only works in certain contexts with certain skill sets.

Originally Posted by short faced bear

... One thing I kept hearing was the "simplification" of the o-line scheme. Easier to learn for the football I.Q. challenged like Webb but also as easy if not more so for the opponent with higher football I.Q. Would love to be a fly on the wall when the opponents film room scouts the protection and scheme.

THAT is a really good point that I had not thought of. It does look as though we have been "figured out" up front.

Hard to say any more. With all the moving that has been done, I'm honestly not sure who is pegged for what future position or if the chairs will moved again when everyone is healthy.

Originally Posted by JJ-30

Isn't E William our future Center.

Originally Posted by JJ-30

Isn't E William our future Center.

I think he's solid depth but that's about it.

I think 4da hits the nail on the head with his summation. It's a great analysis.

In conclusion, I think the real problem is that our talent is either old, green or non-existent combined with inadequate coaching/discipline gives us what we now have. I do believe we could get much better quickly with as few as 2 new pieces and a good scheme and good coaching.

There is more physical talent there than is evident. Even Tom Thayer had some complimentary things to say about a few of them in the preseason. But as far as I'm concerned they are the worst coached and disciplined line in the NFL. They are also playing a scheme that isn't built to maximize their abilities or those of the skills players behind them.

I'm not as much of a student of line play as 4da is but this is what I see.

There is a constant hesitation as if on certain plays they're unclear who to block. I've seen numerous plays where both the RT and RG block the DT and leave the DE or OLB unblocked and they're on the run side of the play. The TE doesn't pick up the DE/OLB so the comes free and either makes that tackle of forces Forte back to the inside and there's nowhere to run.

I've watched plays where two and sometimes three blockers are on a LB or a SS in the second level but there are unblocked lineman and the play gets shut down before it even gets to the second level. It's like they're all looking at one another as if to say this is my guy, no he's my guy you were supposed to get the DT or the MLB, not me, Charlie has him. Maybe this is Garza's fault and he's not making the right line calls. God knows we miss Olin's smarts in that regard even if his physical skills had begun to fail him. In that way I'd say Garza is right behind him. This should be his last year.

Forte is a slasher and cutback runner who needs lanes to run through. He's not a power back although once he gets to the second level he can bring some punch. But at the line he's too upright and he runs high so he can't lower his pads and drive a tackler back. He never does and it's why he fails so often on the goal line. This is nothing new and it's the reason we signed Bush.

We should be running a zone blocking scheme that allows the blocker to take his man in the direction of that guys motion out of his stance and simply shield him from making the play by tieing him up long enough for the back to hit the hole. The Broncos made 1000 yd per year backs out of nobodies doing this using smaller quicker lineman. The blocker doesn't create the hole. The tackler vacates a gap and the blocker simply keeps him from getting back to close it.

No matter how big these guys are that Tice likes they block like pussies and can't even get decent penetration so why even try to run a scheme that depends on it? When you run a good zone scheme like the one Alex Gibbs devised you allow the DT to make a move then continue to use his own momentum against him. Someone penetrates too far inside or a DE comes upfield to quickly and a lane opens. It's up to the back to read that and select the right gap to attack. We don't do that. Run A goes through gap B and if the hole isn't there Forte gets stuffed or gains little. He doesn't have the power or run with a low enough center of gravity to bust through. Bush can power through some of that but Forte can't. But Bush is also quick enough and nifty enough for his size to run a cutback scheme as well.

I say it's the wrong blocking scheme to match the style of the backs we have and the type of lineman we have playing. Tice wants more power inside and he hasn't got it. The guys we have don't often win the battle off the snap. Bad technique, indecision, lack of physical skills? I don't know but it's plain to me they can't execute the run blocking scheme they're being asked to. We did much better last year with whatever Martz's ideas were.

The pass blocking is atrocious. The OGs can't handle stunts to save their asses so that's what every team throws at them. It looks like a Chinese Fire Drill sometimes where we end up with two guys on one DT and the other or a looping DE comes free. Beyond that Webb can't handle speed and this year Carimi couldn't handle speed or power. One almost every play it looks to me like these guys are playing at 3/4 speed like they did in the preseason and truth be told I believe they are. It's why they didn't look quite this bad early on but as teams got in the groove and the tempos picked up the couldn't handle it. Some of that may be due to the way they practice.

We don't need 7 or 8 new players. We need our OC and line coach to come up with a scheme these guys can play and the coaching the need to play it like a unit not five separate pieces. When a line has as many false start penalties and holding penalties on them as these guys do that's just poor coaching. I'm sorry but good lines don't do that. You start pulling stuff like that and your ass gets yanked yet week after week we watch them do it all over again. You'd think by the 14th game they could learn not to jump an snap count.

Fine a LT in FA. That's a must. Webb has improved marginally but I think he's about as good as he'll ever get and that's not good enough. Let's hope Carimi just had a bad year and bounces back. He's nowhere the player he was in college. Injury, uncertainty, loss of confidence? Whatever he has to get better. A lot better. Draft a good OG/OC in one of the first two rounds and see what we can find in FA in the way of a kid who might have something to offer but has been stuck behind a really good vet somewhere else. Pray that Louis returns to from. He played well. If we have a LT that leaves Scott, Webb and Carimi and the kid from the PS to compete for RT and the Swing OT spot. Somewhere out of that we should be able to come up with two decent OTs and give Cutler some time to throw.

If other teams can take mid round picks and FAs and make a good line from them why do we struggle? I can't believe we just do nothing put pick losers. It has to be the scheme that's unworkable or too easy to beat and it has to be the prep and coaching. It's statistically impossible for us always to make or have made the worst possible choices when we drafted or signed these guys. If we did then you have to look at the coaches who spoke for them anyway. Tice has claimed he could make it work with these guys and he didn't!

End of story and end of Tice. That much we have to move on from.