Thoughts on Jay Cutler and Mike Tice

I have been doing some thinking.... a dangerous thing I know....... and I am drawing a blank on some things and want your opinions.

Jay Cutler has gotten a pass on his play this year, and frankly for his whole time in Chicago. All because he has been said to have had poor talent surrounding him and the lack of a competent coach calling plays. My question is, why does Cutler get a pass for not having competent talent surrounding him, but the OC does not? Why is Tice being ostracized for having a poor offense but Cutler has his defenders lining up a mile long? Is it because Tice is the OC and is responsible for calling the plays? If so, then you might have a legitimate argument, but how much water that argument holds remains unknown.

We all know that Tice is a rookie OC who is learning on the job. He makes mistakes, and yes, some of the plays that have been called have not worked out the way anyone would like. But the question that remains, how many of the plays that are being run are actually plays that Tice has called in? We all know that Jay now has the power to call audibles whenever he sees fit. He can change the play whenever he wants to, and can change the play to make Marshall the primary target for every play. Not saying this is what he is doing, but every play is seemingly called for Marshall.

I love that we have Cutler, he is the most talented QB we have ever had, though that does not say a lot. We will not do better than him, and given the chance to redo the trade, I would still pull the trigger (even though I don't think he has played well enough to justify the 2 first round picks, but that goes back to the lack of talent) and bring him to Chicago.

I am just wondering how much blame we know should fully go on Tice, and how much we can lay at the feet of Cutler for the poor offensive play calling.

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Originally Posted by The Benjamin

I have been doing some thinking.... a dangerous thing I know....... and I am drawing a blank on some things and want your opinions.

Jay Cutler has gotten a pass on his play this year, and frankly for his whole time in Chicago. All because he has been said to have had poor talent surrounding him and the lack of a competent coach calling plays. My question is, why does Cutler get a pass for not having competent talent surrounding him, but the OC does not? Why is Tice being ostracized for having a poor offense but Cutler has his defenders lining up a mile long? Is it because Tice is the OC and is responsible for calling the plays? If so, then you might have a legitimate argument, but how much water that argument holds remains unknown.

We all know that Tice is a rookie OC who is learning on the job. He makes mistakes, and yes, some of the plays that have been called have not worked out the way anyone would like. But the question that remains, how many of the plays that are being run are actually plays that Tice has called in? We all know that Jay now has the power to call audibles whenever he sees fit. He can change the play whenever he wants to, and can change the play to make Marshall the primary target for every play. Not saying this is what he is doing, but every play is seemingly called for Marshall.

I love that we have Cutler, he is the most talented QB we have ever had, though that does not say a lot. We will not do better than him, and given the chance to redo the trade, I would still pull the trigger (even though I don't think he has played well enough to justify the 2 first round picks, but that goes back to the lack of talent) and bring him to Chicago.

I am just wondering how much blame we know should fully go on Tice, and how much we can lay at the feet of Cutler for the poor offensive play calling.

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I am not giving Cutler a total "pass" (he threw a bunch of crappy, inaccurate balls vs Arizona for instance), but he's currently irreplaceable and Tice is most definitely NOT. You fix and upgrade what you can and that means OC >>>> QB at this point.

How many times this year have we wasted timeouts because the play didn't get in in time? How many times was a modicum of established "rhythm" broken because again we couldn't get a play called properly? How many times was the play calling sequence beyond retarded? How many times was the overall game plan so stupid and poorly designed as to defy rational explanation?

Did you notice when Cutler ran the two minute drill by audible and no huddle in the late 2nd Q last Sunday how much smoother the offense looked? Have you noticed how many times Tice went "pass heavy" when unnecessary and how many times his run calls were repetitive and predictable? Not to mention his utter mismanagement of OL and receiving personnel? And failing to use Bush and Forte effectively as pass receivers? And continuing to insist that Hester was an offensive weapon? Rachal & CWilliams? ....Enough said.

No question Cutler has to play better too but the O coaching has been terrible virtually every game.

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Originally Posted by The Benjamin

I have been doing some thinking.... a dangerous thing I know....... and I am drawing a blank on some things and want your opinions.

Jay Cutler has gotten a pass on his play this year, and frankly for his whole time in Chicago. All because he has been said to have had poor talent surrounding him and the lack of a competent coach calling plays. My question is, why does Cutler get a pass for not having competent talent surrounding him, but the OC does not? Why is Tice being ostracized for having a poor offense but Cutler has his defenders lining up a mile long? Is it because Tice is the OC and is responsible for calling the plays? If so, then you might have a legitimate argument, but how much water that argument holds remains unknown.

We all know that Tice is a rookie OC who is learning on the job. He makes mistakes, and yes, some of the plays that have been called have not worked out the way anyone would like. But the question that remains, how many of the plays that are being run are actually plays that Tice has called in? We all know that Jay now has the power to call audibles whenever he sees fit. He can change the play whenever he wants to, and can change the play to make Marshall the primary target for every play. Not saying this is what he is doing, but every play is seemingly called for Marshall.

I love that we have Cutler, he is the most talented QB we have ever had, though that does not say a lot. We will not do better than him, and given the chance to redo the trade, I would still pull the trigger (even though I don't think he has played well enough to justify the 2 first round picks, but that goes back to the lack of talent) and bring him to Chicago.

I am just wondering how much blame we know should fully go on Tice, and how much we can lay at the feet of Cutler for the poor offensive play calling.

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I am struggling with a lot of these same questions. Our offense didn't tank ONLY due to Mike Tice. In fact, I suspect the offense tanked for a number of reasons - and having a new OC is one variable in a more complex equation.

Think about it.

Ron Turner was blamed as the bogeyman and run out of town. Mike Martz was welcomed like a hero. He was going to fix all the problems we suffered through under Ron Turner's regime.

Of course the offense was worse under Martz than some of Turner's better years. So, we run the hated Mike Martz out of town and welcome Mike Tice as the "new savior" of our offense. We were ecstatic that we had Tice as OC. He was going to fix all the woes and expectations were SKY HIGH coming into the 2012 season.

Of course the offense still stunk. And now we want to run THIS guy out of town, and bring in the "new savior" who will make it all good on offense.

Don't you think we'd finally get a clue here. It's not all on the OC. There's a lot of blame to go around. But it's like we're in denial. We want to make the OC the source of all evil here.

Some want to make Cutler out to be the major problem. Like, if we just got another QB, THEN all of our woes will be over. That is not going to happen. Tom Brady would crap out with this offense. This offense has many problems.

Fix the offensive line.

Get some people who can actually, you know, CATCH a football (other than B.Marshall & the rookie). At least get TE's who can block and catch. Dump Hester as a WR and get a guy who can, you know, actually run a route and catch a football & make plays.

Let the offense have more than 1 stinking season with the same playbook/scheme/OC.........no more musical chairs here. No offense can reach its full potential when they're handing out new playbooks/learning new schemes and having to adjust to a new Offensive Coordinator almost every year now.

This is madness.

But I realize most "fans" will believe it's as easy as getting a "new guy" as OC and our offense will be "fixed" .....I just don't think our problem is that simple. Never has been.

JABF,

Look at your 3 item list at the bottom. All very true. Nothing to disagree with there.

But...also incomplete. Making those needed player upgrades in no way precludes a change at OC. That move doesn't require cap cost or draft pick tradeoffs. It's a separate issue. And a necessary one. Even if it is unpleasant to be changing coordinators again. We need a talented, bright, innovative OC just as much as we need a real TE to replace Kellen Davis. The offensive incompetence of this team falls just as much on the coaching staff as it does on the poor performance of certain players. It's both. Keeping Tice (under the phony guise of 'continuity'--which just is code for "he's shit but he's our shit so that's ok") would be as dumb as rolling out another 'Hester Package' next year or believing the current OL will just magically 'gel'.

No more bandaid, half-ass solutions. Get a REAL OC and a REAL OFFENSIVE COACHING STAFF.

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Originally Posted by MPBears68

JABF,

Look at your 3 item list at the bottom. All very true. Nothing to disagree with there.

But...also incomplete. Making those needed player upgrades in no way precludes a change at OC. That move doesn't require cap cost or draft pick tradeoffs. It's a separate issue. And a necessary one. Even if it is unpleasant to be changing coordinators again. We need a talented, bright, innovative OC just as much as we need a real TE to replace Kellen Davis. The offensive incompetence of this team falls just as much on the coaching staff as it does on the poor performance of certain players. It's both. Keeping Tice (under the phony guise of 'continuity'--which just is code for "he's shit but he's our shit so that's ok") would be as dumb as rolling out another 'Hester Package' next year or believing the current OL will just magically 'gel'.

No more bandaid solutions. Get a REAL OC and a REAL OFFENSIVE COACHING STAFF.

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I'll be honest. I'm struggling with this, and haven't completely decided in my own mind, if it is best for the team to:

1. Upgrade the talent and fire the coaches, or

2. Upgrade the talent and give the scheme/coaches a 2nd season (with the better talent)

Right now I'm leaning towards option #2. But I'd be lying if I said I was 100% confident with this.

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Originally Posted by JustAnotherBearsFan99

I'll be honest. I'm struggling with this, and haven't completely decided in my own mind, if it is best for the team to:

1. Upgrade the talent and fire the coaches, or

2. Upgrade the talent and give the scheme/coaches a 2nd season (with the better talent)

Right now I'm leaning towards option #2. But I'd be lying if I said I was 100% confident with this.

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Not even talking about HC here, but realize if you keep Tice at OC that pretty much means no change at the positional coaches like Holt (OL), Debord (TEs), and Drake (WRs). Dude, they ALL SUCK BIG TIME. I'll maybe give Holt a minor freebie since he's new but the other two haven't developed jackshit in years. We need a clean sweep on the O coaching staff from OC on down. If the "price" for that is a "scheme change", then so be it. Courage wins the day...let's be bold for once.

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Originally Posted by MPBears68

Not even talking about HC here, but realize if you keep Tice at OC that pretty much means no change at the positional coaches like Holt (OL), Debord (TEs), and Drake (WRs). Dude, they ALL SUCK BIG TIME. I'll maybe give Holt a minor freebie since he's new but the other two haven't developed jackshit in years. We need a clean sweep on the O coaching staff from OC on down. If the "price" for that is a "scheme change", then so be it. Courage wins the day...let's be bold for once.

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You may be right. But here's what eats at me. It has been many years since we had an offense with solid player talent. Year after year after year, it's the same thing - bad talent.

I do know that a constant turnover in coaching, coupled with no oline, no TE's who can block or catch, and needing another WR who can catch and run routes - is a recipe for disaster.

That's a no brainer.

I'm into simple solutions from here on out.

Cutler can stay but the coaching staff needs to go. The whole coaching staff starting with Lovie which then takes care of any doubts any may have about Tice or promoting Bates. Bring in a new HC from elsewhere, interview Toub too, but get someone in here who knows offensive football and can evaluate and use offensive personnel properly.

If I had any assurances that losing on Sunday to Detroit would absolutely assure us of being rid of Lovie I would buy a Jay Cutler voodoo doll and stick it with a pin every time he dropped back to pass. And I would buy an Aaron Rodger one as well just to be certain that for good measure Minny, who everyone thought would be the NFCN cellar dweller, ends up in the playoffs and after a 7-1 start the Bears don't.

I have had it with Lovie and the current regime. One more year will not change a damn things except to get everyone one year older and one more year away from championship football.

Benji, I think you give the Coaching a pass for our problems. Way too much. Cutler IS a problem, but he is far from the worst. He could be the guy that we win with. He has the tools. We just finally need to find a coaching staff that he will work with. Just like I see that same potential with Alex Smith

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Originally Posted by GermansbombedPH

Benji, I think you give the Coaching a pass for our problems. Way too much. Cutler IS a problem, but he is far from the worst. He could be the guy that we win with. He has the tools. We just finally need to find a coaching staff that he will work with. Just like I see that same potential with Alex Smith

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No I just don't pin all the blame on the coaches like some do.

Cutler did not work with Turner, Martz or Tice. How many more OC changes will it take to show that maybe Cutler is more of an issue than fans are willing to admit?