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Last edited by JustAnotherBearsFan99; 02-14-2013 at 11:32 AM.
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Originally Posted by
GermansbombedPH 
I have no problem with Garza/EWill going into next season. Pick up a UDFA and see what you can do with him. Don't waste a 1st on a Center
How is drafting the BEST center (and probably a Top 3 Offensive lineman) "wasting"?
There's absolutely NO WAY we're going to get a LT (Joeckel, Fisher, Johnson) in the first round. That means we need to draft the best offensive lineman available and in this case it would be Jones.
I don't understand why you're so against this guy. If healthy, Jones could become our center for the next decade.
Last edited by little bear; 02-14-2013 at 10:51 AM.
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High Fives / Like - 4 BEAR DOWN!, 0 Dislikes
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Originally Posted by
little bear How is drafting the BEST center (and probably a Top 3 Offensive lineman) "wasting"?
There's absolutely NO WAY we're going to get a LT (Joeckel, Fisher, Johnson) in the first round. That means we need to draft the best offensive lineman available and in this case it would be Jones.
I don't understand why you're so against this guy. If healthy, Jones could become our center for the next decade.
Exactly. I'm not saying Jones is the "only guy" by any means but there are some compelling reasons to think he would be a great choice and a realistic one.
+started at multiple OL positions playing at a high level for 4 years in the most competitive and NFL-like conference in college football
+versatile enough to play OC or OG first year as needed, where we just happen to have major needs
+considered to be a tough and smart kid which is what you need to be "captain of the OL"
+our current C happens to be at the end of his career and contract
+missing the Combine/surgery last month probably makes him fall to the point of being draft-able with a trade down to net a 3rd round pick (there's your TE, Knox replacement, etc right there. consider also that having this 3rd to possibly pick up another OL prospect makes drafting a LB in round 2 all the more realistic)
I wouldn't be upset at all if Emery spent #20 on Cooper straight up for example, but I want that 3rd if its doable.
Last edited by MPBears68; 02-14-2013 at 11:52 AM.
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I'd prefer Jones, but if we signed the Saints guy (since it seems our new OC is gonna be designing our run game, it'd make sense), and drafted a guard and a tackle, I'm not saying we'll even have a top 15 offensive line, but i'd be happier with whatever we'd get out of it...
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High Fives / Like - 1 BEAR DOWN!, 0 Dislikes
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Originally Posted by
Henry Burris I'd prefer Jones, but if we signed the Saints guy (since it seems our new OC is gonna be designing our run game, it'd make sense), and drafted a guard and a tackle, I'm not saying we'll even have a top 15 offensive line, but i'd be happier with whatever we'd get out of it...
Henry the problem is the Saints guy, Brian de la Puente, is a RFA meaning all they have to do is tender him and it will cost anyone else who signs him a draft pick if they tender him high enough. Since he was an UDFA to begin with that seems fairly likely. It's not impossible but I wouldn't consider it likely he'll be available for us.
I'm getting to that age where a lifetime warranty just doesn't mean as much to me anymore as an afternoon nap. 
Honey Badger Don't Care. Honey Badger Don't Give a Shit.
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Originally Posted by
soulman Henry the problem is the Saints guy, Brian de la Puente, is a RFA meaning all they have to do is tender him and it will cost anyone else who signs him a draft pick if they tender him high enough. Since he was an UDFA to begin with that seems fairly likely. It's not impossible but I wouldn't consider it likely he'll be available for us.
Maybe Emery can try the old methods used to procure pirate crews. Find a good prospect for the oline & offer to buy him a friendly drink. Next thing the poor OL guy wakes up in shackles at Halas Hall. It would be a "cap friendly" method too.
Or would this violate the players CBA?
Last edited by JustAnotherBearsFan99; 02-14-2013 at 01:13 PM.
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FWIW here's how Garza ranked according to the stats and compiled by PFF;
Center Roberto Garza was 30th overall but 19th as a pass blocker, in the middle of the pack.
I think they rated about 40 OCs (80 OTs and OGs) so he's bottom third overall but about in the middle as a pass blocker. IMHO that's not anywhere good enough to be the cornerstone of the OL but the interesting thing is that he ranked much higher in 2011 and was a Pro Bowl alternate his first year at OC.
So the question becomes did his play deteriorate that much due to his age or was it at least in part because of the blocking schemes Tice used. All of the players except for maybe Carimi seemed to struggle with run blocking more in 2012 than they did in 2011. Forte's ypc average was a full half yard less than in 2011. So I have to think that at least some of those problems were related to Tice's schemes or play calling.
Kromer runs zone blocking schemes which are much better suited to the kind of talent we have both in the OL and at RB.
Here's the thing. If we draft Jones then we're drafting him to start this year period. I can't see spending the #20 or even a mid to high 20s pick if we trade down on a guy we're not gonna start over taking somebody like Cooper at #20 who we would start at LG. If we're gonna develop a guy to take Garza's place we don't need to spend that first pick on him.
That said I think Jones would be a good pick if his Lis Franc injury won't cause him any problems but that remains to be seen. Yeah he played on it in the BCSC game but one college bowl game isn't the same as a 16 game NFL season so there has to be at least some cautions about drafting him very high.
We took Carimi in the 2011 draft and for the most part his injury has cost us two productive season because he was all but worthless last year trying to play his way out of what that injury did to him. As much as I like Jones I don't want to end up with more damaged goods as a first round pick. First CWill, then Carimi and now a possibility of repeating that a third time? No thank you.
Today I would be happier with taking Cooper if he was there and then drafting or signing a kid to develop behind Garza along with EWill may the best man win. Kromer has already taken an UDFA OC who failed to make the roster on two other teams and turned him into a first class starter in NOLA. If Jones is health and we take him I won't be disappointed but I'd be happier if we didn't take that risk on him that high in the draft. Let that be another teams deal.
I'm getting to that age where a lifetime warranty just doesn't mean as much to me anymore as an afternoon nap. Honey Badger Don't Care. Honey Badger Don't Give a Shit.
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Originally Posted by
little bear How is drafting the BEST center (and probably a Top 3 Offensive lineman) "wasting"?
There's absolutely NO WAY we're going to get a LT (Joeckel, Fisher, Johnson) in the first round. That means we need to draft the best offensive lineman available and in this case it would be Jones.
I don't understand why you're so against this guy. If healthy, Jones could become our center for the next decade.
why are you so in love with this guy?
He plays a position that doesn't get picked early and you will always find qualtiy later in the draft at that position. You want to say that Jones, who's injured right now, would be a better pick than Lane Johnson, Jon Cooper or if he falls enough Chance Warmack? We already have 2 OCs under contract going into next year.
Whoever we pick with our first, we want him to be here for the next decade. That logic makes no sense. You can't just replace Garza. He isn't that bad. You need some vet presence too. You want Webb or Carimi or the questionmark Louis to be the leader of the line? Garza isn't done yet and we have other holes to fill. Not to mention that Jones at 20 would be a reach.
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High Fives / Like - 1 BEAR DOWN!, 0 Dislikes
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Originally Posted by
little bear How is drafting the BEST center (and probably a Top 3 Offensive lineman) "wasting"?
There's absolutely NO WAY we're going to get a LT (Joeckel, Fisher, Johnson) in the first round. That means we need to draft the best offensive lineman available and in this case it would be Jones.
I don't understand why you're so against this guy. If healthy, Jones could become our center for the next decade.
LB he's not a top three OLineman and he's not even close to being the next best after those three. Actually Lane Johnson grades out lower than he does but because he's projected as a LT he'll go much higher. He's another Nate Solder who's gonna get drafted on his potential.
There's at least another 3 or 4 lineman after those that rate higher than Jones including OGs like Warmack and Cooper. In fact both grade and rank much higher than Jones does. Jones is by far the best OC but not the best interior lineman period.
I'm getting to that age where a lifetime warranty just doesn't mean as much to me anymore as an afternoon nap. Honey Badger Don't Care. Honey Badger Don't Give a Shit.
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Originally Posted by
GermansbombedPH why are you so in love with this guy?
He plays a position that doesn't get picked early and you will always find qualtiy later in the draft at that position. You want to say that Jones, who's injured right now, would be a better pick than Lane Johnson, Jon Cooper or if he falls enough Chance Warmack? We already have 2 OCs under contract going into next year.
Whoever we pick with our first, we want him to be here for the next decade. That logic makes no sense. You can't just replace Garza. He isn't that bad. You need some vet presence too. You want Webb or Carimi or the questionmark Louis to be the leader of the line? Garza isn't done yet and we have other holes to fill. Not to mention that Jones at 20 would be a reach.
Red: LOL, you're kidding right? One of them is a 34 yo player in the last year of his contract (and prob his career too), playing out of his natural position, who thoroughly got his ass kicked on short yardage pretty much all last season. The second player is a backup-only quality udfa who obviously isn't good enough to win a starting job in 4+ years or (go figure) he would already be starting.
Blue: OGs "are a position that isn't picked early" as well. If Emery has Cooper high on his board for example and he's available at 20, then pull the trigger sure. No different than drafting Jones in late 1 with a trade down if that scenario plays out. Lane Johnson would be a dumb pick. You don't take the 4th best OT (who won't beat out Webb anyway) over the 2nd best OG or the 1st best OC, especially when your interior OL is in tatters.
No one is saying "Cut Garza!". Of course not. He's a valuable vet presence for another year and can play 3 positions on the inside in a pinch. In fact, even if we drafted Jones, we may still need Garza to start at RG at least some until LL hopefully is at full strength again.
This idea that you can guarantee quality results from the late draft or udfa market is the kind of thinking that lead to this mess. It's bonus when it happens (Louis, Kromer's successes) but is far from assured. And even when a "hidden gem" is found, it takes a couple years generally for that player to become a solid starter. We need OL upgrades THIS SEASON.
JustAnotherBearsFan99 say BEAR DOWN!
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