Free Agency Preview: Centers

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Originally Posted by weneedmorelinemen

I think the guard situation is terrible. Brown is raw. Louis is an injury risk. Carimi should be preparing for a run at RT. I'd hate to think we spent a 1st rounder on a backup guard without finding out his abilities at RT. We get no push on short yardage situations with any of these guys on the line. And I certainly do not want to see Garza brought back to guard.

The way I see it, since this thread is about centers and I am going to wrong direction, is the only way I want to see Garza brought back is to start at center. I keep seeing the sentiment that his best and more natural position is guard. I don't understand that. It's like we have forgotten his most recent play. He's okay at guard, but he never sniffed the Pro Bowl even as an alternate at guard. We bring Garza back to guard, I hope you like to see more short yardage failure because that's what we will have.

Garza is not worth keeping as a backup, moneywise or playwise. He's just not good at LG, and that's what we have the need at is LG. He's just not worth his cap as a backup C/ RG. Granted I am skeptical of Louis actually completing 16 games at RG, but that's how I see it.

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Well hooray on point one. Moving Carimi to LG is not a good move unless what we're planning on doing is trying to create CWill v2.0. What's up with the idea of continuing to play OTs at OG? That was a Mike Tice idea and it didn't work. Carimi does not have the build or the basic physical skills for LG.

And this for Ric. Why does Scott's name keep coming up. He's an UFA as of March 12th and there's no assurance we'll bring him back or that if we offer him another vet minimum deal that he won't get a much better offer elsewhere. If he's good enough to start for us then he's good enough to get more than the $700k we got him for last year from another team. I'm not even gonna count on a guy who's not even under contract. Put him in the same category as other UFAs and tell me if you'd pursue him and sign him for LT. If he doesn't blow it again Carimi will be our RT.

I'm in on this Garza thing too. If he can't play OC then about all you might expect out of him is to fill Spencer's role as a backup RG because Garza failed at LG once before as did Louis. Rachal is unlike to be invited back and Spencer is an UFA too. So who do we have to play LG? James Brown who was a LT in college and still learning to play OG?

All this Chinese Checkers with lineman and playing guys out of position and moving guys around needs to stop. There's at least some talent on that line but there has been zero continuity and if the line is gonna improve that needs to stop. No more sending your first round OT all over the line looking for a way to get rid of him like Tice did with CWill. Carimi was drafter to play RT so damn it coach him to play RT and leave him there. If we want a LG then draft a fucking LG and not an OC you're gonna play out of position waiting for Garza to retire. If they want a LT then find a LT somewhere or start working with Brown since that was his primary position going into the draft not OG.

OK, end of rant. I'd just like to see some common sense instead of half baked justifications for approaches that won't work. :drinking61:

I would not have assumed Garza back at all, same as Spencer.

Scott Being able to start for us, means nothing in his ability to start for another team. C-Will and Carimi don't have much in common, minus Williams lack of stature w/the coaches. This is a new staff, if they want him to play RT, so be it, but again the line really solidified w/Brown/Carimi playing G even when Louis went down. So why fix what isn't broke? If these 2 can hammer down the G spot along w/Louis then what's the problem?

Scott is not a UFA now, or did time skip the rest of Feb and March, as of right now he's still on the team and we have no idea what their plans are. You might well be correct and they don't pursue him, you also might well be wrong and they extend him an offer he accepts. Until he's actually off the team his name is in play; and unlike Garza his play last year is worthy of sticking around.

I think garza comes back 100 percent maybe not as center though. Remember we don't know when Louis is going to play so garza could find himself back at rg if we draft or sign his replacement

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Originally Posted by Riczaj01

I would not have assumed Garza back at all, same as Spencer. (Yes but Garza is under contract for 2013 and Spencer is not. So Garza already is back and yet to be released and so far Spencer isn't)

Scott Being able to start for us, means nothing in his ability to start for another team. C-Will and Carimi don't have much in common, minus Williams lack of stature w/the coaches. This is a new staff, if they want him to play RT, so be it, but again the line really solidified w/Brown/Carimi playing G even when Louis went down. So why fix what isn't broke? If these 2 can hammer down the G spot along w/Louis then what's the problem?

Scott is not a UFA now, or did time skip the rest of Feb and March, as of right now he's still on the team and we have no idea what their plans are. You might well be correct and they don't pursue him, you also might well be wrong and they extend him an offer he accepts. Until he's actually off the team his name is in play; and unlike Garza his play last year is worthy of sticking around.

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Well mostly because Brown and Carimi didn't solidify the line like you believe they did, not even close, that's what the problem is. Carimi wasn't even close to the level Louis was when he got hurt and Brown finally began to look like he had a clue about what to do in the last game but before then no. My purpose in comparing CWill and Carimi has to do with playing musical positions not their respective abilities as football players.

Well as far as Scott's concerned that's all true figuratively speaking but in reality it also means he has to be re-signed just like a whole bunch of others. So he's just as much in doubt as any of those guys including Urlacher until we hear differently. In reality none of them are on the depth chart until they're re-signed. How could they be? Their contracts have expired and they been paid all that's owed them. March 12th when the new league year starts is just the first day they can offer their services to other teams. You can stand on formality all you want but it's not a reality. Until the re-sign with the Bears they are for all intents and purposes former Bears in waiting.


Garza on the other hand doesn't need to be resigned so until they release him I'll count him in as the starting OC as I'm sure the Bears do until they replace him. It had nothing to do with whether either of us think he played better than Scott or not. He's still under contract Scott is not. If you think these guys are still under contract ask one of them if he shows up to work out at team facilities. They won't because they're not covered if they get injured.

Scott is a career backup now and he won't beat out Carimi once he's at full strength. Even if it was even steven Carimi wins because of his draft status and his guaranteed contract. Guys like Scott and Spencer may be viable $1 mil per year type vet depth but that's it. They're maxed out and won't really improve their level of play and we all know that. Those are the guy we're trying TO upgrade not upgrade WITH. If Cory Brandon shows potential at RT he'll even get the nod over Scott because he has upside and he's less costly as a backup and a guy you can develop.

As far as Scott and Spencer go we may bring back one of the two but not both. And if you're gonna move an OT to OG as a backup why not move Scott and let him become your utility guy and not your prize 1st round OT? I don't know Ric, you have your views of it and I have mine but I really can't find the logic in what you're proposing as far as upgrading that line. It just sounds to me like an extension of the Mike Tice approach and it didn't work all that well which is why he's gone.

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Originally Posted by motownbear

I think garza comes back 100 percent maybe not as center though. Remember we don't know when Louis is going to play so garza could find himself back at rg if we draft or sign his replacement

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Thats the reasoning to keep Garza one more year IMO. If we don't draft a C, then he plays there (not my preference). If we do get Jones for instance, then he mentors him and offers a RG option if Louis isn't 100% yet come September.

And let's drop the silly idea that Carimi is a long term OG. He was played there only out of desperation after Louis & Rachal went down and after it was clear he wasn't physically 100% enough at RT. Carimi is our RT of the future or he's a busted 1st round pick who backs up at swing. Given his known work ethic and the fact that he was a much better player pre-injury, I do believe he's gonna come back strong after a full offseason to rebuild since he has to know that a third failed season would really hurt his contract prospects going forward.

The more I think about it, I hope we can draft Cooper at 20 to be our LG for the next decade. And I'd love to draft a C at 50 too. Maybe just maybe Jones will fall that far if enough teams are concerned about him missing the draft prelims. That's probably a pipe dream but Konz did fall to the late 2nd last year if memory serves. On one hand, Jones is rated a little higher than Konz was but on the other hand he has some degree of medical concern that Konz didn't have last year. Be a no-brainier dream scenario if the cookie crumbled our way like that.

Go some combo of WR, TE, LB in 4-6 and that would be an amazing draft. We would actually have an OL that could allow the offense to thrive.

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Originally Posted by Riczaj01

Every player their first few years is raw, doesn't mean they cannot play, he looked solid the last few weeks, and he was playing along side Webb and Garza. imagine a real LT and C next to the kid to help him along. Not sure I would say Louis is an injury risk, he was injured that doesn't mean he will be again. Carimi could well beat out Brown for LG, which would mean you spent a 1st on a LG, which is what people are talking about now...doesn't sound so bad does it? And then you have a UDFA as your backup swing G, which is a solid steal if Louis is a "injury risk". Scott looked fine at RT, I don't see a reason not to let him stay.


Again LT/C are the two big issues. one is going to be handled in FA.

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Until a guy plays a full 16 game season, to me he's a gigantic question mark. The fact that Webb sucks but is never injured is more valuable to me than Brown's inexperience or Louis's tendency to be injured. Garza has been practically indestructable as a Bear.

We'll have Brown and Carimi as backups for next year. That's a good reason to keep Louis and hope he'll be at 100%

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Originally Posted by weneedmorelinemen

Until a guy plays a full 16 game season, to me he's a gigantic question mark. The fact that Webb sucks but is never injured is more valuable to me than Brown's inexperience or Louis's tendency to be injured. Garza has been practically indestructable as a Bear.

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Regarding Webb, I just found out this morning that Scouts Inc. now have him graded out as a decent starter. I posted this in the LT thread earlier, but maybe it will be helpful to our discussion here:

FWIW:

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Scouts Inc. now has Webb graded out as a "Good Starter" at 75. Their grading scale has:

60-69 = Average Starter
70-79 = Good Starter

They state "He has a huge frame with good functional strength and athleticism. He has power at the point of attack as a run blocker, as well as agility, balance and good hand use in pass protection."

They have Webb rated higher than Bushrod.

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Originally Posted by GermansbombedPH

We'll have Brown and Carimi as backups for next year. That's a good reason to keep Louis and hope he'll be at 100%

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Where do you see Carimi as a backup G? Assuming he gets himself back in playing shape this offseason (and I think that's reasonable to assume) he'll be starting at RT. Carimi is not an OG and it would be a big mistake to play him there. He ended up there because we had no choice for about the same reason Louis ended up taking his place at RT the previous year and we can clearly see that neither does the others job very well.

MP has a point about Garza in that he does give us a vet option at RG in the event that Louis is still recovering next fall but for that to happen we have to have another OC from somewhere. EWill, the draft, or FA. Plus the guy is never injured and that's a good thing given all the injuries we've had.

As far as Brown is concerned we still don't know what his best position is. He was a LT in college and a fairly good one albeit at a small school and that still may be his best position if he can play at 310-315lbs. He has both the athletic ability and the long arms you look for in a LT. And then again he could be nothing more than another OMG.

Contrary to Rics belief LT and OC are NOT our biggest problems. Those guys are under contract, healthy, and can play well enough not to totally embarrass themselves. Even Webb. There are bigger question marks at RG and RT if our two studs over there don't overcome their injuries and begin to play like they're both capable of again.

Our biggest problem is at LG. Why? Because we don't have one!!! I can't see them taking Rachal back unless we're forced to and Spencer is not an good option either. Both of those guys are RGs trying to play LG and they both failed to do it well. We'd have been far better off leaving CWill there thank you very little Mike Tice. Brown is little more than a rookie who'd still have to learn the position and Gabe Carimi is not a LG no matter what anybody thinks is possible.

Whatever we do in FA and the draft we do need some experienced LGs. That much I'm sure off.

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Originally Posted by soulman

Where do you see Carimi as a backup G? Assuming he gets himself back in playing shape this offseason (and I think that's reasonable to assume) he'll be starting at RT. Carimi is not an OG and it would be a big mistake to play him there. He ended up there because we had no choice for about the same reason Louis ended up taking his place at RT the previous year and we can clearly see that neither does the others job very well.

MP has a point about Garza in that he does give us a vet option at RG in the event that Louis is still recovering next fall but for that to happen we have to have another OC from somewhere. EWill, the draft, or FA. Plus the guy is never injured and that's a good thing given all the injuries we've had.

As far as Brown is concerned we still don't know what his best position is. He was a LT in college and a fairly good one albeit at a small school and that still may be his best position if he can play at 310-315lbs. He has both the athletic ability and the long arms you look for in a LT. And then again he could be nothing more than another OMG.

Contrary to Rics belief LT and OC are NOT our biggest problems. Those guys are under contract, healthy, and can play well enough not to totally embarrass themselves. Even Webb. There are bigger question marks at RG and RT if our two studs over there don't overcome their injuries and begin to play like they're both capable of again.

Our biggest problem is at LG. Why? Because we don't have one!!! I can't see them taking Rachal back unless we're forced to and Spencer is not an good option either. Both of those guys are RGs trying to play LG and they both failed to do it well. We'd have been far better off leaving CWill there thank you very little Mike Tice. Brown is little more than a rookie who'd still have to learn the position and Gabe Carimi is not a LG no matter what anybody thinks is possible.

Whatever we do in FA and the draft we do need some experienced LGs. That much I'm sure off.

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Here's what I've accepted:

1. We have unproven guys like Carimi et. al. who may or may not be solid. We simply don't know. I'm hoping for the best, but just because we all "hope" something good is going to happen with these guys, it doesn't mean it's going to happen. All these years we've labeled these guys as having "potential" and we all know that most of them crapped out on us.

2. We will have to keep some of the crappy players on the OL this year, due to the fact we can't replace everyone who needs replacing. It's a reality check. I've accepted this too. It's just the hole that Angelo and Lovie dug us. We now have to dig out, and it will take more than one year to fix everything properly. But we can make great headway this year. Maybe get us 80% of where we need to be in the end with the OL.

3. I was not a Brown fan, but (here goes the "potential" thing) he did impress me with his smarts, speed and performance in those games he played in. He'd make some REALLY bonehead plays at times, but clearly, he has what it takes to clean that up with experience. He's no Webb. This guy could be good. But I've said this before and been disappointed. So who knows.

4. Louis should be able to come back and perform well for us. He's quick and executes breathtakingly well. I love to watch him pulling. Textbook stuff. Hopefully that cheap shot didn't permanently hurt his career. It could. But hopefully he can come back 100%.

5. Webb is a question mark for me. I'm just trying to be objective and open to what Kromer thinks here. I trust his judgement. I'm (here it comes) hoping for the best. Usually I'm disappointed when I "hope" in the Bears or Cubs in these situations - but still - I'm hoping.

6. The rest of the OL roster is mediocre to pure crap.

With these 6 points in mind, I don't see how we can choose to NOT seriously attack the OL issues in the draft AND free agency. Some posters here seem to think we can get away with drafting 1 OL guy and toss in 1 free agent, and then "we're done" fixing the offensive line. They say "the oline wasn't that bad" and "it was getting better" so it's all good.

That is delusional thinking. That is Jerry Angelo and Lovie Smith thinking. It hasn't worked. It won't work in 2013. It will never work.

Fix that offensive line properly, and we will have a really exciting year, and many great years to come. Fail to fix it properly, and we'll just see an offense that doesn't reach its potential. It's a shame when that happens. Heartbreaking really...