What are the odds Carimi & Webb are solid starters this season at tackle?

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Originally Posted by Grizzblue

Struggled a bit last year? He was god awful. And if you want to throw rookie names out there what about Peter Konz? That guy from the redskins? Jake long? It goes both ways

And this year isn't about anyone, it's about winning. Garza is going to be even worse this year and spencer won't be brought back. So that means Ewill and Garza will the the lg and c? You want to talk about laughable that's what we have there.

And your right if we have an injury we are right back to where we started only adding one new player

1/2 or 1/4 need to be oline picks depending on who's avail in 2

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What about Peter Konz? His first start was October 28th. Great. What are the Bears supposed to do until then for the first seven weeks of the season if that's the example you want to use. Jake Long was the #1 overall pick of his draft. He is not a useful example to the Bears situation, unless you think the Bears have a shot at Joeckel. Who are you talking about on the Redskins? Trent Williams? He was like a top ten pick. Not a concern the Bears have.

I have been advocating acquiring one high rookie draft pick to start immediately. It is my preference to get one for the LG position because we do not have a LG. If they see an upgrade for Garza, that's fine too.

I do not see Edwin Williams as anything other than a backup caliber player. I imagine that he will be cut in the offseason by the new coaches.

I have not mentioned Spencer in any capacity since his contract is up and I do not see him being offered a new one.

This year is not about finding out if Cutler is going to be extended? Sorry, yes it is. If the Bears do not win this year, he is gone. You think his chances of winning increase by putting a bunch of rookie linemen in front of him? No, they don't. I don't even like rolling the dice with one rookie, but that's where we are

We have a first and a second round pick with no third rounder. Do you expect the Bears to use both of those picks on offensive linemen? If you do, you are just deluding yourself. If you don't, then at best you are looking at field a first and a fourth rounder on the line this year.

The Bears need to offer the best level of protection that they can this year. We have so many issues, from Louis probably not being ready to start week one to what the hell to do with Carimi, it seems foolish to compound our problems by removing functioning parts of the team. I've come to the expectation that Webb will be our starting LT in 2013. I don't know what is going to happen on the rest of the line.

What I do know is this: Starting two rookies on the offensive line in a season where you want to be competitive is foolish. Starting them right next to each other is suicide.

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Originally Posted by WindyCity

Our line was incredibly bad last season and I would not be shocked if 3 rookies on the line would not have been better.

Our play at LG, RT and towards the end C was deplorable.

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Completely agree. I think we have a good shot at drafting improvements for 2 of those 3 "holes" and patching the last one internally.

Windy, two questions for you as an OL guru guy...

1) What do you think of OC Schwencke (sp?) from Cal I believe? 2nd round potential for us?

2) What do you think James Brown's potential and what position is best for him?

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Originally Posted by weneedmorelinemen

We do not have the cap room or picks available to just open up competition on the offensive line like that.

I've figured out the disconnect that I am having with some of you. I just read in a different post below this one that Cooper at LG and Barrett Jones at C would be a better option than Garza. Not at first. Not week 1 of 2013. I don't think you guys are remembering how unreliable rookies are. Do any of you remember how horrific the Jets line looked with D'Brick and Mangold in their rookie year? Yes, they are good now, but their rookie year together that line was awful. What happened to DeCastro for the Steelers? Oh yeah, hurt for the first eight weeks of his rookie season.

This is ignoring that we don't have high enough picks to get both Cooper and Barrett. You need to choose one, and settle on a lower caliber rookie for that second slot. Ooh, now that doesn't sound so good, does it?

You have to get through the beginning of the season to make it to the end. I'm sure when the Rams drafted Jason Smith that they were not thinking he'd be traded for a crappy veteran three years later. How's Carimi looked these past two years? He was the Outland winner of his college class. How did Webb look his rookie year? Yet now we are touting he's better than Bushrod. How did Chris Williams look his rookie year? Rookies cannot be relied upon to be healthy or know what they are doing on the line.

You have no idea what a player's health situation is going to be like until they show it to you on the field. Is anyone here afraid Webb is going to go down with an injury? How about Garza? Of those two, no, they will be here every game. Now, when Chris Williams was here, I was concerned for his health every year. Now I worry about Louis and Carimi. Because of what they have shown me on the field.

Here is the most important part. This is Cutler's make or break year. Cutler is what is important, not developing two rookies linemen next to each other. We need to field the best line right now that will protect Cutler, but also one that Cutler knows. He's already got two years of experience behind Garza. You guys want to take that away because he struggled a bit last year? Fine, but it had better not be next to some kid who also does not know what he is doing.

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I disagree with virtually all of this. Week 1 rookie jitters aside, we need new blood on that OL in the worst way. Garza is DONE as a starting caliber player and we never had one at LG.

You can have to many rookies on your OL. You need a legit mix of young and old; so that the youth can be helped along by the vets...but you need quality vets to help them. If you had a all rookie interior on this squad flanked by Webb/Carimi they WOULD be as bad or marginlally better/worse then last year.

I was under the impression that while Carimi injured his knee week 2, he didn't have surgery until week 9-11(sometime in November)?

.. Bears announce rookie OL Carimi will have knee scoped - NFL.com..

Scoped in November (After being put on IR)...

..Bears OT Carimi easing way back from knee surgery - NFL.com ..

Additional surgery in December..

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his rookie season came to an end when he dislocated his knee against New Orleans in the second game. He returned to practice briefly before having an arthroscopic procedure in November. He also had surgery in late December to repair connective tissue around his patella and medial collateral ligament.

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Just making sure that my impressions were correct. That being said, the length of time this amount of time is taking to heal is distressing. I hate to slap Carimi with the "career over" tag, but it is certainly possible. I'll take a "wait and see" position for now.

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Originally Posted by weneedmorelinemen

What about Peter Konz? His first start was October 28th. Great. What are the Bears supposed to do until then for the first seven weeks of the season if that's the example you want to use. Jake Long was the #1 overall pick of his draft. He is not a useful example to the Bears situation, unless you think the Bears have a shot at Joeckel. Who are you talking about on the Redskins? Trent Williams? He was like a top ten pick. Not a concern the Bears have.

I have been advocating acquiring one high rookie draft pick to start immediately. It is my preference to get one for the LG position because we do not have a LG. If they see an upgrade for Garza, that's fine too.

I do not see Edwin Williams as anything other than a backup caliber player. I imagine that he will be cut in the offseason by the new coaches.

I have not mentioned Spencer in any capacity since his contract is up and I do not see him being offered a new one.

This year is not about finding out if Cutler is going to be extended? Sorry, yes it is. If the Bears do not win this year, he is gone. You think his chances of winning increase by putting a bunch of rookie linemen in front of him? No, they don't. I don't even like rolling the dice with one rookie, but that's where we are

We have a first and a second round pick with no third rounder. Do you expect the Bears to use both of those picks on offensive linemen? If you do, you are just deluding yourself. If you don't, then at best you are looking at field a first and a fourth rounder on the line this year.

The Bears need to offer the best level of protection that they can this year. We have so many issues, from Louis probably not being ready to start week one to what the hell to do with Carimi, it seems foolish to compound our problems by removing functioning parts of the team. I've come to the expectation that Webb will be our starting LT in 2013. I don't know what is going to happen on the rest of the line.

What I do know is this: Starting two rookies on the offensive line in a season where you want to be competitive is foolish. Starting them right next to each other is suicide.

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Ok leaving lg out of this, assuming that Warmack/cooper/fluker will play there is a given if we draft one

Now on to garza. Last year he was bad up until week 8ish, after that he was horrid. As solid of a player as he was and as much as I have enjoyed watching the guy play, he is DONE.

Playing center is one of the most physically abusive positions in any game, and he showed his body is starting to not be able to put up with it.

How many times did he get blown up in short yardage, by a 1/2 tech...with a combo block on? Rewatch some games and you will see how horrid our inside combo blocks were. He was unable to get the umph off the ball to allow himself or the gaurd to advance to the second level. Also, rewatch how many times a pulling gaurd had his path altered and ultimately hindered due to garza getting blown up on a back/fill block. That is the easiest block a center is asked to make, his only job is to stalemate and not allow the DT to cross his face. He severely struggled there as well. And the absolute worst and most frustrating was his ability to recognize a 7-3/5-2 stunt but inability to pick it up, same also with MLB blitzes.

And by the seasons end it had went from below average to flat out unacceptable.

Kromer and Trestman are going to use quick reads and drops. This requires a short set in the middle. Basically what this means is we are altering our first steps off the line to short powerful punches, 2 quick bang bang steps and a hard "jam" at the line....instead of the typical pass pro. To make this offense work we can allow 0 penetration up the guy to allow a clear launch point with good vision and lanes to step into. Garza'a biggest knock is the fact he gets exploded by most NTs

So how are we going to address this? No FAs out there. You said yourself Ewill and Spencer aren't options. So that leaves a rookie. Does it have to be a 2nd round pick? No. Is it possible? Absolutely. It is no secret good centers can be found later in drafts.

And your point is true, it is about winning you said it yourself. With or without cutler will be the question...and replacing garza even with a rookie who wins the job (I expect he will) puts jay in a better position to succeed.

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Originally Posted by Grizzblue

Ok leaving lg out of this, assuming that Warmack/cooper/fluker will play there is a given if we draft one

Now on to garza. Last year he was bad up until week 8ish, after that he was horrid. As solid of a player as he was and as much as I have enjoyed watching the guy play, he is DONE.

Playing center is one of the most physically abusive positions in any game, and he showed his body is starting to not be able to put up with it.

How many times did he get blown up in short yardage, by a 1/2 tech...with a combo block on? Rewatch some games and you will see how horrid our inside combo blocks were. He was unable to get the umph off the ball to allow himself or the gaurd to advance to the second level. Also, rewatch how many times a pulling gaurd had his path altered and ultimately hindered due to garza getting blown up on a back/fill block. That is the easiest block a center is asked to make, his only job is to stalemate and not allow the DT to cross his face. He severely struggled there as well. And the absolute worst and most frustrating was his ability to recognize a 7-3/5-2 stunt but inability to pick it up, same also with MLB blitzes.

And by the seasons end it had went from below average to flat out unacceptable.

Kromer and Trestman are going to use quick reads and drops. This requires a short set in the middle. Basically what this means is we are altering our first steps off the line to short powerful punches, 2 quick bang bang steps and a hard "jam" at the line....instead of the typical pass pro. To make this offense work we can allow 0 penetration up the guy to allow a clear launch point with good vision and lanes to step into. Garza'a biggest knock is the fact he gets exploded by most NTs

So how are we going to address this? No FAs out there. You said yourself Ewill and Spencer aren't options. So that leaves a rookie. Does it have to be a 2nd round pick? No. Is it possible? Absolutely. It is no secret good centers can be found later in drafts.

And your point is true, it is about winning you said it yourself. With or without cutler will be the question...and replacing garza even with a rookie who wins the job (I expect he will) puts jay in a better position to succeed.

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Okay, considering we draft a guard in the first round, I would imagine we would acquire a FA center if Kromer felt that Garza was unacceptable. He made something out of De La Puenta who floated around to like 5 teams before playing center for NO.

I'm just saying, if you expect this team to be competitive this year, starting two rookies side by side is something only foolish and desperate teams do. I'm sure Emery wants to know just what he has in Cutler and if it is the line play holding him back. Playing two rookies will just allow for more excuses and wonderment if Cutler really could play or not. It will also result in an OSHA filing against the Bears by Cutler for unsafe working conditions.

Edwin Williams and Spencer are not the only two players that can play center in the NFL. There are more options than just a rookie we draft on the third day of the draft to play center.

I keep reading posts where posters think we should just draft Cooper and then somehow get Barrett Jones, bam, problem solved. This idea is just so full of magical wish dreams. I feel bad for when those dreams get shattered come draft day.

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Originally Posted by weneedmorelinemen

Okay, considering we draft a guard in the first round, I would imagine we would acquire a FA center if Kromer felt that Garza was unacceptable. He made something out of De La Puenta who floated around to like 5 teams before playing center for NO.

I'm just saying, if you expect this team to be competitive this year, starting two rookies side by side is something only foolish and desperate teams do. I'm sure Emery wants to know just what he has in Cutler and if it is the line play holding him back. Playing two rookies will just allow for more excuses and wonderment if Cutler really could play or not. It will also result in an OSHA filing against the Bears by Cutler for unsafe working conditions.

Edwin Williams and Spencer are not the only two players that can play center in the NFL. There are more options than just a rookie we draft on the third day of the draft to play center.

I keep reading posts where posters think we should just draft Cooper and then somehow get Barrett Jones, bam, problem solved. This idea is just so full of magical wish dreams. I feel bad for when those dreams get shattered come draft day.

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So more crap FA signings and Tice pixie dust is the answer? We tried that.

I'd like for us to draft 2 solid OL guys. WNML brings up a good point about the fact that starting too many rookies on the oline is probably going to result in a rough season. But this is where we've found ourselves after years of neglect. There really isn't a perfect solution. Jerry Angelo really screwed this team, and we are paying a heavy price for his neglect of the OL.

But I still think we'd be wise to take full advantage of a draft class that is loaded with interior line talent. I see it as kind of like the BPA theory applied to entire draft classes. Some years the OL talent is just not there, and certainly nothing approaching our opportunity for THIS class year. Maybe one option is to make the top OL pick a starter, and then groom the 2nd OL guy - and not start him until he's fully ready. I never thought that our second OL pick this year would be an automatic starter anyway. He won't be elite like a pick in the 1st round. This year that 1st rounder will probably be an elite interior lineman.......but even he will have a learning curve and make mistakes this year.

I hope we draft two studs for the interior OL. And I'm not locked into thinking we have to draft a college center, to eventually replace Garza. With some foresight, we can get a really solid guard, that we can groom to be a center. If that means we have to keep Garza this last season, then that's part of the price we have to pay for Jerry Angelo's mess that we're cleaning up now.

But grab two young stud OL players regardless. Don't miss this opportunity THIS season, only to have to settle for a "Chris Williams" compromise in a lean OL class year.

Regarding FA, it's another option for depth. But usually you overpay for a less than desirable player. Sure, there are exceptions to this. But if we truly want to fix the oline right, and fix it for the future (and not a Jerry Angelo stop-gap solution) then get young studs through the draft, and maybe add some depth through FA (2nd tier guys that won't be prohibitively expensive but who will be better than the bums we have now).

Re: "fixing" the C position (and I think we all agree it needs to be fixed):

I am very skeptical of a FA signing here. Multiple reasons why. You overpay for what you get, there's a shorter lifespan, and we might not have the cap space anyway. This is a stopgap only, if it happens at all.

The following is predicated on Emery doing his due diligence medically just like he successfully did mentally on Marshall this time last year. And him clearing the necessary hurdles. If so, and if he falls to 50 (which is looking realistically possible at this point), it would be freakin' stupid to pass on Barrett Jones in the 2nd.

Konz started at C the 2nd half of his rookie year and Jones is considered better than Konz. Wisniewski started from the get-go at LG (winning a rookie-of the week award in week 3) and then successfully moved to C. Jones can play G too if need be then move to the middle. Value? Konz was drafted in the late-2nd and Wiz was drafted in the mid-2nd. Hardly unprecedented. Yeah, a franchise center for the next decade is worth a mid-2nd pick, especially when all we have is garbage or backup quality only there now.

Maybe just maybe if there's a LB there at 50 Emery really really likes I pass, but otherwise this would be a no brainer IMHO.