Cooper and a possible trade-down
Originally Posted by GermansbombedPH
I got a great idea why don't we wait on the draft junk until we see what we get in FA.
It's always fun to speculate and most of the time none of us are right no matter how close we get to the draft. Talking about FA is also fun, but equally a crapshoot if not more to speculate about, we don't know how much emery is willing to spend and how much those guys want....it's about having good, fun discussions that's all
Originally Posted by JJ-30
The trouble with our D line has been our O line ... leaving the D on the field to be gassed ... fuck that shit!
Originally Posted by Grizzblue
We can solve all this teams problems by getting an O-LINE for JCut and keeping the D - LINE OFF the field !
Until the DLINE needs to come on and clean up !
An OLINE means BOTH sides of the trenches clean up.
Emery pull the trigger on Barret Jones ...
for the first time in decades lets stop fuuckin around and build an OFFENSIVE LINE.
KEITH VAN HORNE
We PROVED we can get it done !
why Jones? There are other good OLs available when we will make our selection. Just saying that Jones isn't the only guy we could eye. Jones would be a reach. I stay with that
Here's the thing, if jones stayed at gaurd he would likely have been a top 15 pick with the degree of sucess he has had, and I suspect that by April we will just be hoping that he is still there at 20 (I suspect he will be)
Originally Posted by GermansbombedPH
If you are right then I ask you this....say we can net a 3rd or 2nd with a trade down to the very end of the first round...would you rather have jones at 30 and an extra late 2nd/early third? Or T'eo/olgetree?
And you completely correct that there are others but its clear that we need to REPLACE some guys up front and you simply can't do that at 20 for LT
So other than jones the two other guys for concideration would be Warmack(bama)and Cooper (UNC)
I personally do not think either will make it to 20 but then again decastro did so ya never know that's what's awesome about the draft IMO
In the end if you correct in his stock not raising (you very well may be) would you want a decade long center AND an extra pick as I said or just one of guys like T'eo, olgetree, cooper, Warmack
The inticing thing about jones is he has played every position on the line and at 315 he has the size to do so in the NFL (although I like him for center to get our interior run game moving and stonewall pass pro)
This is premature I know but I would love the idea of a trade down to bottom 2nd/ top 3rd and go with
Just a hypothetical situation of a trade down. Rough estimate I'm no scientist on values of picks.
1.(30) Jones(starting OC)
2.(52) MLB(SLB/dev for MLB)
2.(60)IOL(compete for LG/RG:depth)
6.(140)WR(speed, stretch field/dev/depth)
how do you know that Jones will be a decade long Center? Guy has an injury right now that needed surgery. Read: risk to be a bust
then you look at who else is available and who you like in the 2nd round. I'm not sure if there is enough potential to turn down Te'o or Ogletree.
next: is Jones at Center really an upgrade over the leader Garza? I doubt it, I really do. Garza is on the decline, but he can still play and lead this line. Draft a Center later in the 4th or 5th. There will be one available that needs about 1-2 years to take over Garzas spot. Problem solved.
No #20 OL player will help out OL from day 1. I doubt Warmack falls to us. What I do know, 1 of Te'o or Ogletree will be there for the taking. You get a #1a or #1b for his position. Wouldn't say no to the best MLB of his draft. Think the Steelers will go with a MLB or they go RB.
Trade down? Not really a fan of this. If we trade down, I'm all for hoping 1 of the MLBs is still available (maybe even think about Minter) or I take the best TE and go OL & OL in Round 2.
I just don't see us taking Jones unless he falls to us in the 2nd round. This guy will be without the combine and plays a position that usually not get taken that high.
T'eo came into the biggest game of his college career by far billed as a "can't miss top pick" and he, along with the rest of the highly touted ND front 7, flopped miserably. As in...got totally schooled and their ass beat badly even in their specialty of run-defense by the Alabama OL.
Read: risk to be a bust (or at least over-rated)
Im not saying that the guy isn't going to be a darn good player and he may indeed pan out in the draft prelims to be all that he was touted as, but as of right now, the "shine is off" quite a bit. So lets not assume he is automatically "bpa for us" if he falls to #20. In fact, since you're right his position tends to be drafted higher than interior OL, you would have to question just how awesome he really is if he indeed falls to the back half of the 1st round.
Youre right that there's no way to know for sure that Warmack or Jones would become our stellar LG or C "for the next decade". Same can be said of T'eo at MLB too. He certainly didn't play like that in the BCS title game at all.
Garza is definitely in decline (and he didn't have an injury to blame it on) and he will be 34 this spring. That's about where Kreutz was when his play started falling off the cliff, and Garza never was near OK's level to begin with when he was at his peak. He was an OG most of his career who converted to C when OK bolted and Spencer flopped. He may have a year or two of serviceability left and if so he could back up at C and be an option at OG (for instance, we may need him to play RG, his natural position beforehand, if Louis isn't ready right away by Labor Day). It's not like he would be "replaced" completely but rather just pushed down the depth chart at C and likely moved back to compete at OG where btw we also are THIN.
These are just some of the considerations that hopefully will be sorted out properly as we go through FA and the lead up to the draft. If we can substantially upgrade the OL without using the 1st round pick there (and I mean really truly improve it, not just some wing-and-a-prayer band aid fix) then I'm all for looking hard at other prospects on the defensive side. As of this early point, the OL is a much bigger immediate "hole" than the LB corps and it cost us dearly the last few years.
Last edited by MPBears68; 01-11-2013 at 11:19 AM.
High Fives / Like - 2 BEAR DOWN!, 0 Dislikes
T'eo is overrated IMO we saw what happens when he played a future NFL quality oline and halfback, he was getting kicked around by guys who have played at a high level for a whole against the best talent college football had to offer. Meanwhile T'eo was tearing it up against mediocre talent. I attribute alot of his overinflated draft stock to the "notre dame is back" national craze that also proved to be false.
With that said I still don't think he makes it past pit.
Now on to Jones (I'm also assuming Warmack could be gone with a slight possibility he's around, like decastro)
His injury is a bit of a concern I agree (partially why I think maybe Warmack would be a go over him if he's avail) but its not a knee or back and I'm not very concerned that it will reoccur, and he should be good to go come OTAs
Our offensive line is horrendous and without some overhaul it will be WORSE next year. We need 2 replacements MINIMUM. Now LT must be solved in FA so I'm optimistically hoping that is a given somehow, someway.
On to our interior...
It's almost laughable and if anyone thinks that garza is reliable anymore you are kidding yourself, he is rapidly declining and never was the same player at C. Our middle running gsme was laughable at best and pass pro disasters in there went largly unnoticed. (i mean cmon how many freaking times did a de come clean on a 73 or 62 stunt, the most basic there is) add in jay almost never had any room to step up, and you have a whole lot of worthlessness. Not only is this pick (jones/Warmack/cooper) going to be a huge boost now, but an insurance policy for the future
There is not ONE personel up front that you could say confidently will be a starter 3 years from now
Webb-seems to hardly develop past year 2, hasn't been good by any stretch
Garza-senior citizen, showing signs of rapid decline, has MAYBE one year left
Louis-knee injury uncertainty
Carimi-seems knee has possibly stunted his dev, although I do think he will vastly improve
Rachel-threat to the public health, I'd say likely let go
Ewill-ehhh, maybe a backup for at least 2 years, I don't see a decent player here
Brown-too little to go off of but you can't bet the bank on a udfa
This leaves us with a real possibility of a year or 2 from now having NO current players starting or 4/5 out, bare minimum being 3/5
Do we really want to go into next year needing 3 replacements? 2 min?
Lovie was canned over the oline for all practical purposes, will a new HC want a similar fate? No.
We inject youth into this line with one of the stated above (jones likely IMO) and the entire team improves, we see what we really have with cutler as he will be facing 2 make or break years IMO defense is on the field less and our offense is more balanced. Lastly and probably the biggest upgrade is inside running. We nab a MLB in the 2nd and go OL again in 4th (barring an extra trade down pick)
If we continue to neglect our oline we will suffer the same fate as last 2 years, and jeopardize cutler and fortes health in the process. We will whine and moan about the oline being awful and be disappointed by missing the playoffs again. I don't want to be taking draft again in December next year....
With that being said (and I appreciate the time to read it)....
German, (and all other T'eo advocates) if we do go T'eo how would you adress the oline nightmare? Bank on a 2nd round pick being a day one starter? Risk another Webb (just getting by not very effective) passing on MUCH better quality. I'm asking in seriousness and respect everyone's opinion on here, it's what makes this place great.
Glad we can have good debates like this and no one does a Rachel like in the past hah!!