upshaw's $15 mill fund angers retire players.

**Dagan81** · 05-06-2011, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by dabears54

And if that is true- still only player and union problem, not anything to do with the Owners, or to blame them for it... they made their bed and now have to lie in it- and don't cry to the league or owner's about bad retirement pensions for your older players, when a large chunk of what SHOULD have gone to them( $15 mill +), was siphoned off to the Union leader instead.. that is my only complaint

Okay DB, WHO made the comment that the NFL retired players deserve a bigger piece of the pie for pension plans back months ago? It was me, that's who... lol.

Of course, you were right in that players from any era should have saved up for their eventual golden years, but that still doesn't excuse the fact that there isn't enough in pension plans to cover it.

Gene Upshaw should be dragged out of casket and hanged by his shriveled up testicles because what he did was nearly tantamount to embezzlement. It is a real shame that he was never sued for what he did, or worse.

**dabears54** · 05-06-2011, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Dagan81

Okay DB, WHO made the comment that the NFL retired players deserve a bigger piece of the pie for pension plans back months ago? It was me, that's who... lol.

Of course, you were right in that players from any era should have saved up for their eventual golden years, but that still doesn't excuse the fact that there isn't enough in pension plans to cover it.

Gene Upshaw should be dragged out of casket and hanged by his shriveled up testicles because what he did was nearly tantamount to embezzlement. It is a real shame that he was never sued for what he did, or worse.

being sued now for $28 mill, is why hearing about today, so at least taking the right steps now :)

And never said the reitired players didn't need a bigger slice, just said and still beleive it, that their angry and many fans was pointing at the wrong direction.. Shoudn't be pointed at the owner's ,but their OWN UNION and union heads that made the awful decisions, told them to take pensions at 45. , had the plan designed to benefit( DB plan not a DC plan) higher paid people like upshaw and not the real retireee's etc etc.. that was most of the problem...

**Dagan81** · 05-06-2011, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by dabears54

Soul- not everything needs to be owners vs players.. or a conspricacy. The Owners had ZERO to do with Upshaw, ZERO to do with electing him, Zero to do with setting up any pension( that would be illegal), Zero to do with setting up a deferred comp plan, Zero to do with Approving the plan, Zero to do with funding the plan , that intad of going to retire players-went almost all to Upshaw. that is 100% on Upshaw and the union itself NOTHING to do with the owners, Sorry!

Its Ok, to just say Upshaw is scum and liar( many have said this), and that a shame he tried to blame the Owner's for the pathetic pension benefits, that were not caused by the owner's but by Upshaw and the union leader's themselves,100% on Upshaw to defer $15 million to hismelf and not the reitired players, zero on owners and that that the owner's could do nothing about it- except shake their heads and say look at the plan itself- which unfor they did, but no one seemed to actually do it until recently.And upshaw's lies about the "owner's fault" for low pensions,when in reality was 100% on him, and he falsely tried to blame the owners, and the owner's even said at time 'look at the pension and benefits"( becaue they weren't allowed to design it or have a thing to do with it)- and unfort for a long time no one did, despite so much jsut going to upshaw

And guess if Upshaw was in the Owner's pocket's, wouldn't they have gotten the deal they wanted in 2006 from upsahw?and not now be fighting for lower 's and more give backs? i mean isn't that the "idea" of having soemoen in your pocket? to get abetter, not a worse deal??.. Sorry that doesn't pass the "smell test" to me. if it was the owner's wanting the status quo from 2006, you would have a point but its the oppoite, and they got a really bad deal that both sides admits greatly favored the union, which doesn't say upsahw was in the owner's pocket, jsut upshaw greedy, a liar and scum.

I've been saying this for 5+ years, that when he died( or left union), they would find all kinds of illegal stuff, and find out alot of the money was sipohoned off by him.. Just glad its finally coming home to roost where alot of the problems really were...and not sure if you everread the SI expose on Upshaw, but agreat read, that at the time, should ahve exposed much of this- but he died after the article, and the people that were catching on, got buried... nice to see in th end though all coming out now.

cont( about 9 pages but worth the read)

Conrad Dobler was near the front of the charge; how could I not remember him? Even with his hair turned white, his legs hobbled by five knee replacements, the old St. Louis Cardinals guard delivered a helmet-first shot. "Some people have no conscience," he snarled, "and he's one of them."

Then came a neck-snapping tackle from an old Baltimore Colts safety. "We have no interest in working with a man of his morality," said Bruce Laird. "He is a nonentity. . . . He means nothing to retired players."

On came another ancient guard, a former Buffalo Bill with a savage forearm shiver. "I won't stop until that bastard's gone or in jail," said Joe DeLamielleure. "He's a disgrace to every player, past and current."

Next came a creaking running back and a quarterback, one high and one low. "He is nothing more than a pawn," howled Mercury Morris, the former Miami Dolphin. "This is a scam. It's always been a scam and always will be a scam." Ex-Houston Oilers QB Dan Pastorini's hit was swift and brutal: "He makes me sick."

Then it grew worse. One of the eldest ghosts, a onetime Cleveland Browns cornerback, arrived like a missile and administered the lowest blow of all. "A habitual liar," Bernie Parrish hissed, and then demanded to know why the man wasn't a suspect in the unusual death of his ex-wife.

Two were his own quotes, when his anger at all the head slaps finally spilled. "The bottom line is I don't work for [retired players]," he told The Charlotte Observer in January 2006, responding to DeLamielleure's cries against him and their benefits. "They don't hire me and they can't fire me. They can complain about me all day long. They can have their opinion. But the active players have the vote. That's who pays my salary. [The retirees] say they don't have anybody in the [bargaining] room. Well, they don't and they never will. I'm the only one in that room. They don't even have a vote."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...214/index.html

Wow. Coming from a retired player, that is pure evil and hate spewing from his mouth. At the same time, I am a little bit surprised that there hasn't been a coalition of retired players to form a union of their own to stand up for the rights of the retired player. Gene Upshaw was a cocky bastard and the second most powerful man in pro football behind only the NFL Commissioner at the time. If they could make it a three way race, things would get interesting.

**ChicagoBears** · 05-06-2011, 11:54 PM

That's too bad that Gene thought so little or not at all of retired players considering he was one himself....greed does bad things to people...it's truly an act of selfishness on UpShaws part...unfortunately these guys such as Dobler, Morris, Pasterini and so on will never see the fruits of their labor in the form of a respectable and decent pension and that's really a shame...

**dabears54** · 05-07-2011, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by ChicagoBears

That's too bad that Gene thought so little or not at all of retired players considering he was one himself....greed does bad things to people...it's truly an act of selfishness on UpShaws part...unfortunately these guys such as Dobler, Morris, Pasterini and so on will never see the fruits of their labor in the form of a respectable and decent pension and that's really a shame...

actually despite not having to.. the NFL and teams have tried to help and redirect funds to these retired players, that got screwed by upshaw and his predecessor's bad advice, with the '88' plan,the "nfl player care plan"

https://www.nflplayercare.com/

and hopefully they can win the lawsuit and reclaim many of those millions, which also would go to the retired players only.

Finally , in the last proposal for the new CBA, a large part of the Savings of the rookie cap of $300 million would go to "fund a new retirement plan" for the retired players, so to make right what the union leaders failed to do for decades. But what is sad, is Demaurice smith aleady complaining about it and about the retired players wanting this money!

http://blog.nflalumniassociation.com...it-in-writing/

Challenge to the NFLPA: Put it in writing to retired players!

NFLPA Former Player Executive Committee representative, Jim McFarland sent an email (attached below my comments) to a number of retired players. In it, he talked about what the owners did and didn’t say during the negotiations and the mediation sessions. He also asked NFL Alumni Leaders, to hold the NFL accountable for the NFL’s “alleged” promises to:

1. Provide a new pension supplement averaging 60%, not out of the salary cap monies allocated to players, but out of their owner funds to be added to the Bert Belle Defined Benefit Plan.

2. Provide that the “alleged” $300 Million in savings from the proposed new rookie pay system be divided equally so that $150 Million is guaranteed by the NFL owners to be allocated to fund benefits for former (retired) players.

3. Provide that the owner contribution to the legacy fund be funded by $50 million per year for the entire 10-year term of the contract, not just $82 million for the first two years

The NFL Alumni can’t guarantee anything and Jim McFarland and the NFLPA are well aware of that fact!
Jim McFarland and Cornelius Bennett are the only retired players that sit at the negotiating table with active players, but unfortunately even they can’t guarantee anything because when it comes right down to it – only the active players can vote and agree on anything that is proposed by the owners.

Regardless of what was said in the negotiation sessions, the NFL owners have now told the world – IN WRITING – what they are “proposing” to do for retired players. We still need some clarification on some of the things they said, but it is important to know that even the NFL owners can’t “guarantee” or “promise” anything unless the active players agree to it!

The NFLPA has consistently told us that George Martin doesn’t represent retired players in CBA negotiations, so why are they now asking him for guarantees from the owners? That makes absolutely no sense at all………unless you realize what is really happening here.
The NFLPA is trying to use George Martin as a scapegoat for their failure to negotiate better pensions and benefits for retired players.
George Martin has no vote on the CBA – just like the other 13,000 retired players that are watching and hoping the NFLPA and owners do the right thing. Nonetheless, DeMaurice Smith has done a superb job of demonizing Mr. Martin and getting his troops to believe that he is the enemy and can’t be trusted.

contin in link

**dabears54** · 05-07-2011, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by ChicagoBears

That's too bad that Gene thought so little or not at all of retired players considering he was one himself....greed does bad things to people...it's truly an act of selfishness on UpShaws part...unfortunately these guys such as Dobler, Morris, Pasterini and so on will never see the fruits of their labor in the form of a respectable and decent pension and that's really a shame...

actually despite not having to.. the NFL and teams have tried to help and redirect funds to these retired players, that got screwed by upshaw and his predecessor's bad advice, with the '88' plan,the "nfl player care plan"

https://www.nflplayercare.com/

and hopefully they can win the lawsuit and reclaim many of those millions, which also would go to the retired players only.

Finally , in the last proposal for the new CBA, a large part of the Savings of the rookie cap of $300 million would go to "fund a new retirement plan" for the retired players, so to make right what the union leaders failed to do for decades. But what is sad, is Demaurice smith aleady complaining about it and about the retired players wanting this money!

http://blog.nflalumniassociation.com...it-in-writing/

Challenge to the NFLPA: Put it in writing to retired players!

NFLPA Former Player Executive Committee representative, Jim McFarland sent an email (attached below my comments) to a number of retired players. In it, he talked about what the owners did and didn’t say during the negotiations and the mediation sessions. He also asked NFL Alumni Leaders, to hold the NFL accountable for the NFL’s “alleged” promises to:

1. Provide a new pension supplement averaging 60%, not out of the salary cap monies allocated to players, but out of their owner funds to be added to the Bert Belle Defined Benefit Plan.

2. Provide that the “alleged” $300 Million in savings from the proposed new rookie pay system be divided equally so that $150 Million is guaranteed by the NFL owners to be allocated to fund benefits for former (retired) players.

3. Provide that the owner contribution to the legacy fund be funded by $50 million per year for the entire 10-year term of the contract, not just $82 million for the first two years

The NFL Alumni can’t guarantee anything and Jim McFarland and the NFLPA are well aware of that fact!
Jim McFarland and Cornelius Bennett are the only retired players that sit at the negotiating table with active players, but unfortunately even they can’t guarantee anything because when it comes right down to it – only the active players can vote and agree on anything that is proposed by the owners.

Regardless of what was said in the negotiation sessions, the NFL owners have now told the world – IN WRITING – what they are “proposing” to do for retired players. We still need some clarification on some of the things they said, but it is important to know that even the NFL owners can’t “guarantee” or “promise” anything unless the active players agree to it!

The NFLPA has consistently told us that George Martin doesn’t represent retired players in CBA negotiations, so why are they now asking him for guarantees from the owners? That makes absolutely no sense at all………unless you realize what is really happening here.
The NFLPA is trying to use George Martin as a scapegoat for their failure to negotiate better pensions and benefits for retired players.
George Martin has no vote on the CBA – just like the other 13,000 retired players that are watching and hoping the NFLPA and owners do the right thing. Nonetheless, DeMaurice Smith has done a superb job of demonizing Mr. Martin and getting his troops to believe that he is the enemy and can’t be trusted.

contin in link

**The Benjamin** · 05-07-2011, 07:15 AM

But yet, despite the need not to do so, the NFL is filled with greedy SOBs who don't care about their players.... :)

**dabears54** · 05-07-2011, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by The Benjamin

But yet, despite the need not to do so, the NFL is filled with greedy SOBs who don't care about their players.... :)

LOL.. that's the "party line" the NFLPA tries to keep saying, hoping people do not look behind the curtain...its asd to see george martin, get slammed by the NFLPA, when only trying to help the retired players, and fix the wrongs of the past..Are their greedy owners? of course!, just like their are players that are greedy...just wish more fans would realize the whole situation and not point the fingers so quickly without knowing the whole truth and backround and laying the gross incompetence of the union leaders for 3 decades, where it rightfully belongs.. and for the Current players to have more sympathy and want to also help fix these wrongs

**The Benjamin** · 05-07-2011, 07:28 AM

I have more sympathy for the players of yesteryear than I do for the players of today. Today's players (a majority anyway) can afford to be taken care of with only a year's paycheck or two if not the bonus.

**soulman** · 05-07-2011, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by dabears54

Soul- not everything needs to be owners vs players.. or a conspricacy. The Owners had ZERO to do with Upshaw, ZERO to do with electing him, Zero to do with setting up any pension( that would be illegal), Zero to do with setting up a deferred comp plan, Zero to do with Approving the plan, Zero to do with funding the plan , that intad of going to retire players-went almost all to Upshaw. that is 100% on Upshaw and the union itself NOTHING to do with the owners, Sorry!

[B]Next came a creaking running back and a quarterback, one high and one low. "He is nothing more than a pawn," howled Mercury Morris, the former Miami Dolphin. "This is a scam. It's always been a scam and always will be a scam." http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...214/index.html

I'm sorry too. Sorry that you're being naive and always supporting the owners postions even after some of the crap they've pulled over the years. You say that this in 100% Upshaw and the players (although the players seem to resent him) and none of it attributable to the owners.

You take the time to post all this stuff pushing your position but do you ever read what you post? If you're 100% right about this then what is Mercury Morris quoted as saying? At least somebody believes what I've been saying.

Upshaw was an arrogant and selfish dickhead, an asshole, and on that we agree. But he was also an owners thrall as much as he was a players rep and quite a few knew that for a long time. Were there enough of them who did to force him out? Probably not but that doesn't change the facts. You can deny it and you will but I think that if you really looked at all of the facts you may see it differently and if not it's just another area where we agree to disagree.

Oh, by the way I never claimed that it was a conspiracy. I realize the players elected him but if you believe that the owners had nothing to do with supporting that decision then you also believe that Daddy Bush had nothing to do with getting "Dubya" elected or that Dick Dailey didn't get the votes Kennedy needed in 1960 either.

I don't believe your that naive but I do think you'd support the owners position no matter what. I'm just as much a pro-business guy as the next be I won't support either of their positions 100%.

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