Thread: upshaw's $15 mill fund angers retire players.

Originally Posted by soulman

I'm sorry too. Sorry that you're being naive and always supporting the owners postions even after some of the crap they've pulled over the years. You say that this in 100% Upshaw and the players (although the players seem to resent him) and none of it attributable to the owners.

You take the time to post all this stuff pushing your position but do you ever read what you post? If you're 100% right about this then what is Mercury Morris quoted as saying? At least somebody believes what I've been saying.

Upshaw was an arrogant and selfish dickhead, an asshole, and on that we agree. But he was also an owners thrall as much as he was a players rep and quite a few knew that for a long time. Were there enough of them who did to force him out? Probably not but that doesn't change the facts. You can deny it and you will but I think that if you really looked at all of the facts you may see it differently and if not it's just another area where we agree to disagree.

Oh, by the way I never claimed that it was a conspiracy. I realize the players elected him but if you believe that the owners had nothing to do with supporting that decision then you also believe that Daddy Bush had nothing to do with getting "Dubya" elected or that Dick Dailey didn't get the votes Kennedy needed in 1960 either.

I don't believe your that naive but I do think you'd support the owners position no matter what. I'm just as much a pro-business guy as the next be I won't support either of their positions 100%.

i'm not Suppoorting the owner's 100% soul, sorry, they have screwed up also and just trying to point out THE PENSION PROBLEM IS A UNION, not owner problem, and that upshaw was a HUGE PART OF THAT PROBLEM... and the $15 mill deferred comp plan he did , shows that for all.

Where we disagree is you see upshaw as a "pawn of the owners"..and doing their biding, and in THAT we disagree- i see upshaw doing only his own selfish biding and 'getting what's mine"... I see a CBA that favored the players greatly, and even the Players own exec committee admitting "we def got the best of the owners in 2006"- which if Upshaw the owner's "pawn", that doesn't happen, and the owner's would have gotten the best of them- that is the idea of having a "pawn". I can't logically say someone is a 'Pawn" and doing the owner's biding, when that side gets the best of the owners...

But he was also an owners thrall as much as he was a players rep and quite a few knew that for a long time. Were there enough of them who did to force him out? Probably not but that doesn't change the facts.

And think we need to differentiate the "players".. the current players didn't have a problem- either because of arrogance or ignorance, the problems came from the 'retired players", who were older and realized the SCAM( which think was what morris talking about, the scam of the bad pension and scewing the retired players) and realized that Upshaw was screwing them and refusing to admit it or fix the problem, and being so arrogant to even basically say "f-them, i don't work for them".. when he actually did need tp listen/help as union paying members, the retired players did have upshaw working for them when in the league- they STILL had paid his salary and his $15 mill comp plan..my problem isn't a "owners vs union" in this Soul... its a "upshaw was scum, and tried to hide his scams, tried to get the players to turn to other things or hate the owner's, so hopefully no one realizes the REAL PROBLEM WITH THE PENSIONS, was upshaw and his bad plan design and upshaw diverting the money to himself and not he retireee's

"They don't hire me and they can't fire me. They can complain about me all day long. They can have their opinion. But the active players have the vote. That's who pays my salary. [The retirees] say they don't have anybody in the [bargaining] room. Well, they don't and they never will. I'm the only one in that room. They don't even have a vote."

Do not think we are actually that far in disagreement soul- we both think upsahw was scum and bad- we just disagree about being a pawn of the owners.. no big deal.. All really cae about is the pension getting fixed for the retireee's that deserve it, and hopefully they win the lawsuit and can fund alot of the ex-players needs, with this $15 mill + and in the new CBA, get a big portion of the rookie cap savings going to the retireee's and health plans

Btw soul, while think Morris, has had all that cocaine impair many of his thought processes, here's what he was talking about:

So, where the hell have I been in the last eight months? Fighting a never ending battle against “The Truth Squad”, the Justice Department and “the American way” of the NFL. I have been fighting a battle against the NFL over the treatment of retired players involving disability and pension issues that have come up over the last 20 years. I have been representing retired players and their widows who have had problems with the ability to understand the system that the NFL’s Retirement Board has put in place. It’s called an “in order to” system—things are done “in order to” control the process. Rightfully so, because it has been designed to systematically exclude retired players. I was successful several times in making the Retirement Board give back disability benefits that were wrongfully taken from retired players.

In May of 2009, the NFL Retirement Board passed a made-up rule to block me from exposing the league’s misconduct, declaring that I could no longer represent retired players because of what happened to me almost 30 years ago. A phony “felony exclusion” rule was invented by the Groom Law Group at the direction of the Retirement Board to prevent me from helping players with disability issues. They said it was “to protect the players”. When asked by the media to give an example of what the players needed to be “protected” from, the NFL had no answer.

That might sound simplistic, but this “solution” was hatched in the mecca of corruption, Washington DC and then spread throughout the retired players community like a pandemic. It’s called “Greed” and it is run by the power brokers and politicians, lawyers and lobbyists of Washington, DC, and now they have been joined by the player’s union. The Groom Law Group runs the players’ Retirement Plan—a “business within a business” which is protecting the assets of the owners by any means necessary. How significant is this law firm? The White House is 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. The Groom Law Group is 1701. I’m not going to get into this now, but here’s a quote from a Department of Labor Investigation I started in 2005:
“The Retirement Board unanimously approves all Plan expenses. Plan expenses are weighted heavily in the area of legal fees when retired players who have been denied disability benefits sue the Plan”.
Groom has been paid over 55 million dollars in legal fees “defending” the Plan against retired players. The Retirement Board “amens” every dollar. So, the most money not spent by the “trustees” on benefits is being spent on preventing players and their families from receiving benefits. “We’re 22-0”, said Doug Ell, lead lawyer for Groom, who by the way got 195 million dollars in legal fees from the owners in 1993 after the CBA settlement.. However, the Groom Law Group still represents the Retirement Board, which includes three members of the NFLPA. What does that tell you?

Originally Posted by Dagan81

Whoa fellas, getting a little hostile here! I refuse to agree 100% with any side either, despite the fact I'm pro-union. As much as I hate the owners who for decades have railroaded players' potential to earn as much as they are really worth (okay, so I side it), the NFLPA is that much worse in not working to get the retired players proper pensions. It's almost a dead-on tie between the two sides, and a tie is like kissing you sister right smack on the lips. Luckily, there are very rare occasions in life in which a tie between two bad situations comes into play, but when it does, that's when you have to settle down and just accept the lesser of the two evils.

It's not hostile at all Dags. It's just the way we debate something. Long and strong but without any name calling or insults like it should be. Think of the old SNL episodes with Jane Curtin and Dan Akroyyd doing "Point vs Counterpoint". It's "54 you self important slide ass vs soulman you ignorant slut", LOL. We debate but we're not enemies because of it.

But I will kiss my sister before I kiss him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7S_XWuKpHc



Watch!

Were debating opposite sides but neither of us disagrees completely with the other. The owners can be greedy and the players can act like spoiled prima donna's. We both want out of court and back in negotiation but debating it brings both sides to light.

Besides, it's fun. What are we gonna do debate over whether or not Enderle was a good pick in the 5th for another month?

Originally Posted by dabears54

Btw soul, while think Morris, has had all that cocaine impair many of his thought processes, here's what he was talking about:

To answer his question. It tells me what I've been saying all along. There has always been a certain degree collusion between the owners and the NFLPA in exactly the way there is in almost any faux political partnership. What floors me is the $55 mil they've spent fighting over paying out benefits to retired players instead of simply making an honest attempt to better them.

One thing your dead on about is that when two parties go to court the lawyers get rich and the two parties get poorer. These attorneys should be subjected to a wage scale and a salary cap just like those they represent. Fewer lawsuits and more money to go around.

Originally Posted by soulman

To answer his question. It tells me what I've been saying all along. There has always been a certain degree collusion between the owners and the NFLPA in exactly the way there is in almost any faux political partnership. What floors me is the $55 mil they've spent fighting over paying out benefits to retired players instead of simply making an honest attempt to better them.

One thing your dead on about is that when two parties go to court the lawyers get rich and the two parties get poorer. These attorneys should be subjected to a wage scale and a salary cap just like those they represent. Fewer lawsuits and more money to go around.

Ah, now you are getting into tort reform. I like your style!

There is entirely too much shit going on in the courts in this battle between the two sides and not enough negotiating. The owners don't want to negotiate; they want to dictate, and the players just want to cry in their milk all the way to their mamas. At this rate, I'm not sure if there will even be a season. We can forget watching the Bears in the Hall of Fame Game in Canton, OH, in early August.

Originally Posted by dabears54

LOL.. exactly..just as the old saying goes 2 sides of the same coin.. not name calling, just bringing up different issues or different viewpoints and that is what message boards should be about- a fun exchange of different viewpoints, without it being personal or turning into a vendetta : )

lol