DT OR DE

Discussion in 'Chicago Bears' started by BSBEARS, Mar 1, 2014.

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DT or DE in RD 1

  1. MPbears68

    MPbears68 Pro-Bowler

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    The team is on record saying they will be a base 4-3, 1-gap defense. Donald looks like the prototypical 4-3, 1-gap type of DT playing 3tech. So he should be a great fit for us. Be very different if we switched to a base 2-gap, 3-4 front for example.

    We will have to see but I assume "Tucker's 4-3 defense" will differ from Lovie's by utilizing more blitzes, fewer straight cover-2 assignments, and have a few hybrid 3-4 looks thrown in there too.
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  2. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    Who says we grab either if Dix is available? Reality is the team, as of right now needs a starting DE, DT, FS, and CB, in the first round, you have to draft the highest rated of those positions that also has the least depth going later into the draft. If DE and FS are the thinnest positions going into the 2 and later rounds how you do pass on Ealy or Dix for Donald, when there is better depth at DT?
  3. MPbears68

    MPbears68 Pro-Bowler

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    I don't see much of this "depth" at DT you're talking about.
    Ratliff is a stopgap rotational guy at his age (and he's still unsigned).
    Collins is a backup and coming off and an ACL (also unsigned). Both can rotate at NT too.
    Melton is coming off an ACL and is 50/50 to return depending on $.
    The others we had at the position last year are trash.
    So, if Melton flies the coop for bigger bucks, we are without a solid starter in the fold going forward. I'd take Donald at 14 in a heartbeat in that scenario. The 3-tech position is the lynchpin here and that isn't purely a "Lovie only" phenomenon.

    As far as S goes, we have nothing right now at SS. Wright is a goner and shouldn't be offered a penny. Steltz is a backup quality guy only and he's a FA as well. We need a starting SS more than a FS right now. I know everyone loves to hate on Conte at this point (and he did regress badly last year) but he's still under contract one more season with something to prove. And he played pretty decently in '12. I'd look to sign a vet SS to start and draft a mid-round FS to groom/compete.
  4. BSBEARS

    BSBEARS Pro-Bowler

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    Exciting and scary at the same time. No starting DE' and no starting DT's. We have a "PP" line (LOL) "P"eppers and "P"eae. Lookingn forward to seeing what the Dline looks like. Not starting the Peppers debate again so will be interesting to watch.
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  5. MPbears68

    MPbears68 Pro-Bowler

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    Lol, yeah the DL as a whole is a total dumpster fire. I'm not ignoring other positions but saying the best bang for the buck so to speak would be to invest heavily there in FA/draft. A much improved front 4 rotation will help our LBs and DBs a lot. Our pass rush sucked last year and every Joe Blow running back was through to the 2nd level in the blink of an eye.

    Btw, just read that Buffalo isn't tagging Byrd and can't come to terms with him. He's hitting FA which deepens the available talent pool at S considerably. If Emery could snag a SS like Whitner or Ward and a DL next week, we'd be looking a lot less desperate going into the draft.

    http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5307/jairus-byrd
  6. BSBEARS

    BSBEARS Pro-Bowler

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    Additionally I read Cleveland is ready to break the bank to get him and they have tons of money. Might allow us to sneak in and pick up TJ Ward.:36_1_55[1]:
  7. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    i'm talking about depth in the draft, not on the team.
  8. MPbears68

    MPbears68 Pro-Bowler

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    Got ya. But if Melton bolts we need a day 1 starter at 3T not a depth guy.
  9. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    True, but a day 1 starter at DT can be had in the 2nd. And the team regardless needs a day 1 starter at DE also; all I'm saying is I think that the chances of getting 2 day 1 starters is by going DE/FS 1st round and DT 2nd b/c I'm not sure there is a day 1 starter at DE/FS in the 2nd-3rd rounds and there the possiblity is there imo for DT in the 2nd.
  10. soulman

    soulman Pro-Bowler SuperFan DBS Writer

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    Donald is that guy and since the Bears (and most other 4-3 teams for that matter) rotate their DTs and DEs you're not talking about the kid playing 80% plus of the snaps. We don't know about Collins recovery and he's never mentioned so we have no idea what the plans are for him but if he's healthy I'd bring him back in a heartbeat. He's a good DT who at times has looked just as good to me as Melton has. They've been saying they want Ratliff back as well and I could live with those two along with Paea and Donald of they draft the kid.

    Ratliff is a 4 time Pro Bowler who hasn't played much these past two years so I believe he still has at least one good year or maybe even two in him as a rotational DT at both NT and 3 tech. Collins and Melton are wild cards right now and so is the possibility that Emery will pursue a guy like Bennett. But if they had Paea, Ratliff, Melton or Collins and Donald I could get excited about that DT rotation. Or if they sign Bennett then they have that guy who can play both LDE and DT and that works too.

    No one can seriously believe that Emery is gonna go very long with just Pep and Paea as the only two experienced DLinemen under contract. The 8th is next Saturday and that's the day players agents can officially begin to market their FAs to other teams so either Emery settles some of these deals this week or he's letting the market set the value for his DLine free agents first and then he'll take it from there. As much as I dislike some of his moves Emery always has a plan but he's also very good at not showing his hand until he has to.

    Tucker may like bigger linemen but the biggest problem I see with most of them is that they don't fit (like Nix) or they aren't worth the #14 pick. In fact a couple of them shouldn't even be 1st round picks. They're high risk guys who may never be anything more than mediocre pros. I'd love to be able to say that I trust Emery to do the right things but so far his track record with restocking that defense as been dismal at best and now they don't seem to be certain exactly what they plan to do defensively.

    Yeah they say they plan to stick with a 4-3 base but they also say they'll play to the strengths of the guys they sign and they just hired two coaches with recent backgrounds in 3-4 defenses so how in the hell would anyone know what their plan is? If they're smart and Tucker can actually coach it I believe they'd be best served by sticking close to what they've been doing and simply tweak it. Run more varied defensive fronts, blitz more often and less predictably, and play more man coverage with a single deep Safety. They need to play a pressure defense more like Buddy Ryan ran and less of the Cover 2 bend but don't break style of the Lovie era. JMHO
  11. BSBEARS

    BSBEARS Pro-Bowler

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    Agreed, and hoping they will. This will effect the players they take making players who can play multiple positions more valuable as they change looks. McClellin can line up at DE, OLB etc. I have read Donald played 5 Technique in college but a true 3 technique in NFL. This is where Hageman may become more valuable, he can play any postition on the Dline in NFL per reports. Seems Hageman is dropping a bit on several boards.. Long shot but maybe we could get them both, trade back up a bit in day 2 if we can not trade down and get her done
  12. JustAnotherBearsFan99

    JustAnotherBearsFan99 Coordinator SuperFan DBS Writer

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    Thanks for taking the time to explain it. So we're pretty much screwed now no matter what we do going forward. I had not fully understood just how much of our future we mortgaged with Peppers. Man, how sad is that?
  13. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    If they could end up somehow solidifying the 2ndry it'd be possible, even if unlikely to be able to get both, if they did...omg sick to think of the potential of a Donald/Hagemen youth movement on the DL along w/Bass/Paea and maybe a few old vets like Collins and Ratfliff to help w/stability.
  14. soulman

    soulman Pro-Bowler SuperFan DBS Writer

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    To me the problem with Hageman is that despite having the size and athleticism to dominate at Minnesota he didn't and in that program he should have stood out like a sore thumb. I'd take Ealy or Donald long before I'd take Hageman and not before the end of the first or even in the second and unless someone is desperate for a LDE/DT type I think he'll continue to drop. It's not his athleticism that's in question it's his football skills. Personally I don't like guys you have to teach to play a game they've been at for 4-8 years in HS and college.

    While I hope the take Donald based on my very preliminary amount of knowledge and info about their plan I won't be totally shocked or all the disappointed if they took Ealy either. In my book it really comes down to those two since I believe both are relatively equal at their positions and I believe at least one of them and possibly both will be there at #14. Which one kind or pivots around who stays and who goes between Pep, Melton and Wootton and who they sign in FA.

    Because I believe one or both will be there and both are rated as solid #10-#20 pick guys I would not look to trade down for a guy like Hageman and I'm really hoping Emery feels that way too. What worries me though is his tendency to draft athletes who fail at the position he drafts them to play. Hardin and Conte were both college CBs. One has failed at Safety and the other may be on the verge. McClellin can't play LDE because he's too small and Bostic can't play MLB because he can't read and react fast enough or stack and shed blockers. Both these guy are probably destined to be OLBs (Bostic at WLB and McClellin at SLB) and so far Greene looks like a guy who should be cut or told to lose 25 lbs and go back to playing Safety. So Emery's track record with drafting defense is pretty poor so far and that worries me.
  15. MPbears68

    MPbears68 Pro-Bowler

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    Every team does it, JABF. it's always tempting to defer "paying" (cap-wise) till tomorrow what you'd rather not pay today. Everyone of us has credit cards. If youve ever re-financed a mortgage, youve done something similar. NFL teams tend to also count on the overall league salary cap going up every year to absorb some of the dead cap they have hanging around on the books.

    The new Cutler contract as it stands now is 7 years but contains no signing bonus and guaranteed money only in the first 3 years. Thus, it's basically a 3 year deal with 4 option years to follow. The Bears could walk away from Jay after 3 seasons and incur no cap implications nor owe him not one penny more. But they do have an option built into the contract to automatically convert yearly salary into signing bonus at any point they want. The PRO is they can free up more cap space now if they want. The CON is they will incur some dead cap accounting charges later if they release Cutler in 3 years.

    Getting back to Peppers, let's say for argument he is willing to renegotiate to a '14 salary of $5m like Soul mentioned. His cap cost would fall from about $18.2m currently to about $9.2m for a net addition to the teams cap of about $9m.

    Would you want to keep him for $5m in salary, $9.2 in total cap cost, and $9m in new cap space freed up or not?
    Remember, if you say no, you only save an additional $5m against the cap. The $4.2 is gone either way. Next year too.
    And you have to pay someone else to replace him.
    So, do you want $9.2m Peppers or $4.2m No-Peppers?????
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2014
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  16. JustAnotherBearsFan99

    JustAnotherBearsFan99 Coordinator SuperFan DBS Writer

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    "Would you want to keep him for $5m in salary, $9.2 in total cap cost, and $9m in new cap space freed up or not?"

    From your previous post, I didn't understand that we could get out from under the $18-mil and $20-mil cap hits for Pep. I thought we were screwed and there was nothing we could do to avoid the massive $$$ hits. My bad. I thought we were on the hook for the money no matter what.

    Here's the deal with me and the Peppers situation. My main beef with Pep is his play, or lack of play. I understand we have a lot of holes to fill on this team, but ideally I'd like to see younger players with ceiling brought in. If he would take a $5mil contract, and that would help the team financially, then I guess that would be fine - if he can still play. There were games last year where he looked no better than Shea McClellen to me.

    Hey, on a side note, I'm probably a weird guy with money. I don't make a lot of money. I have to budget closely. My wife and I don't charge anything on our credit card that we can't pay at the end of the month. Maybe this is one reason I find $18-mil and $20-mil cap hits so wasteful if it's going to a player who can't play well anymore. :)
  17. soulman

    soulman Pro-Bowler SuperFan DBS Writer

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    That a good example using a credit card. The cap amortization of an upfront signing bonus is pretty much like that or like a car loan we pay off over time. We hope our paychecks will get bigger making the purchase more affordable and NFL teams are counting on the cap increasing which for a couple of years it didn't and actually shrunk. That's why the Bears and others had to ask their high dollar players to restructure.

    For a $5 mil paycheck and a $9.2 mil cap hit I'd keep him but I don't know if Emery will after what we all saw last year. Pep has most definitely become a guy who needs to play and practice less just like Urlacher and a bad injury also seems possible at his age. But despite that he's still productive and one of if not the best DL they have and not easily replaced if he'll play for that. If not they may as well release him and go after a high dollar FA with some of that money and also draft a pass rusher of some sort.
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  18. BSBEARS

    BSBEARS Pro-Bowler

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    Its a great debate, Playing football for 4 to 8 yrs is different than playing the same position. I am a good engineer and good at math, But would suck at being an accountant. Likewise Hageman was a TE his first couple of yrs at Minnesota. Opposing teams had to game plan for him because he was it. I do not like changing positions once they hit the pros either but teaching is non stop and I compare Hageman to Kyle Long type. Raw and needs coaching. Found the below article, seems to to a great debate. I am almost hoping they keep beating him down so we can get them both. Works for me, they say they can both play DE and DT


    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000319248/article/aaron-donald-rashede-hageman-two-different-draft-prospects

  19. JustAnotherBearsFan99

    JustAnotherBearsFan99 Coordinator SuperFan DBS Writer

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    That helps me understand it better. Thanks to you and MP, I think I have this "cap thing" down now. Going back to the car finance example, I guess you just hope the car can hold together well & we're not paying on a loan for a worn out car that is totally unreliable.

    BTW, I make peanuts for a salary, and haven't had a decent raise in years, and probably make less money than 95% of the posters on this messageboard. But we paid for our new car (new Honda hybrid) with cash. I try not to take out loans because on my small salary, I can't afford to carry a lot of debt. I also have 2 kids in college right now too. Consequently, I have to be tight with a buck :)

    I'd probably make a terrible GM. I'd be soooooo careful with the team's money. I'd probably be like Papa Bear - throw nickles around like manhole covers :)
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2014
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  20. MPbears68

    MPbears68 Pro-Bowler

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    Lol, buddy, the car loan analogy is perfect.
    You can pay for a new car all upfront if you want. The PRO is that its paid off and you're done. The CON is that is a painful upfront hit.
    Or you can finance it. The PRO is that the upfront hit is greatly lessened. The CON is that you may be still making payments on a car years down the road you are sick of and want to get rid of.

    That's the Peppers/Bears situation in a nutshell, as well as plenty of other players/teams in the NFL.

    Getting back on topic with draft choices, the more I read about Hageman the less I want him. Not at 14 for sure. No more 1st round "projects" please. Accomplished football players not raw athletes please, at least in the 1st. We were fortunate that the Long pick seems to have worked out well. The Shea pick certainly did not. The Hardin pick, despite being more justifiably risky since it was in the 3rd, was a disaster that has left us with no depth at safety.

    At #14, gimme the best player at his position not some guy who is the 4th-5th best at two different positions with "athletic versatility". Btw, Dallas desperately needs DL too and they pick just two spots behind us. If we take Donald, they probably get the #2 guy in Jernigan. I'm betting Nix and Hageman fall and both end up going to base 3-4 teams in the latter-1st.
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