DT OR DE

Discussion in 'Chicago Bears' started by BSBEARS, Mar 1, 2014.

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DT or DE in RD 1

  1. Ealy

    46.2%
  2. Donald

    53.8%
  1. BSBEARS

    BSBEARS Pro-Bowler

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    Agreed, and hoping they will. This will effect the players they take making players who can play multiple positions more valuable as they change looks. McClellin can line up at DE, OLB etc. I have read Donald played 5 Technique in college but a true 3 technique in NFL. This is where Hageman may become more valuable, he can play any postition on the Dline in NFL per reports. Seems Hageman is dropping a bit on several boards.. Long shot but maybe we could get them both, trade back up a bit in day 2 if we can not trade down and get her done
     
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  2. JustAnotherBearsFan99

    JustAnotherBearsFan99 Assistant Head Coach
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    Thanks for taking the time to explain it. So we're pretty much screwed now no matter what we do going forward. I had not fully understood just how much of our future we mortgaged with Peppers. Man, how sad is that?
     
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  3. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka
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    If they could end up somehow solidifying the 2ndry it'd be possible, even if unlikely to be able to get both, if they did...omg sick to think of the potential of a Donald/Hagemen youth movement on the DL along w/Bass/Paea and maybe a few old vets like Collins and Ratfliff to help w/stability.
     
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  4. soulman

    soulman Hall of Famer
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    To me the problem with Hageman is that despite having the size and athleticism to dominate at Minnesota he didn't and in that program he should have stood out like a sore thumb. I'd take Ealy or Donald long before I'd take Hageman and not before the end of the first or even in the second and unless someone is desperate for a LDE/DT type I think he'll continue to drop. It's not his athleticism that's in question it's his football skills. Personally I don't like guys you have to teach to play a game they've been at for 4-8 years in HS and college.

    While I hope the take Donald based on my very preliminary amount of knowledge and info about their plan I won't be totally shocked or all the disappointed if they took Ealy either. In my book it really comes down to those two since I believe both are relatively equal at their positions and I believe at least one of them and possibly both will be there at #14. Which one kind or pivots around who stays and who goes between Pep, Melton and Wootton and who they sign in FA.

    Because I believe one or both will be there and both are rated as solid #10-#20 pick guys I would not look to trade down for a guy like Hageman and I'm really hoping Emery feels that way too. What worries me though is his tendency to draft athletes who fail at the position he drafts them to play. Hardin and Conte were both college CBs. One has failed at Safety and the other may be on the verge. McClellin can't play LDE because he's too small and Bostic can't play MLB because he can't read and react fast enough or stack and shed blockers. Both these guy are probably destined to be OLBs (Bostic at WLB and McClellin at SLB) and so far Greene looks like a guy who should be cut or told to lose 25 lbs and go back to playing Safety. So Emery's track record with drafting defense is pretty poor so far and that worries me.
     
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  5. MPbears68

    MPbears68 Pro-Bowler

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    Every team does it, JABF. it's always tempting to defer "paying" (cap-wise) till tomorrow what you'd rather not pay today. Everyone of us has credit cards. If youve ever re-financed a mortgage, youve done something similar. NFL teams tend to also count on the overall league salary cap going up every year to absorb some of the dead cap they have hanging around on the books.

    The new Cutler contract as it stands now is 7 years but contains no signing bonus and guaranteed money only in the first 3 years. Thus, it's basically a 3 year deal with 4 option years to follow. The Bears could walk away from Jay after 3 seasons and incur no cap implications nor owe him not one penny more. But they do have an option built into the contract to automatically convert yearly salary into signing bonus at any point they want. The PRO is they can free up more cap space now if they want. The CON is they will incur some dead cap accounting charges later if they release Cutler in 3 years.

    Getting back to Peppers, let's say for argument he is willing to renegotiate to a '14 salary of $5m like Soul mentioned. His cap cost would fall from about $18.2m currently to about $9.2m for a net addition to the teams cap of about $9m.

    Would you want to keep him for $5m in salary, $9.2 in total cap cost, and $9m in new cap space freed up or not?
    Remember, if you say no, you only save an additional $5m against the cap. The $4.2 is gone either way. Next year too.
    And you have to pay someone else to replace him.
    So, do you want $9.2m Peppers or $4.2m No-Peppers?????
     
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    Last edited: Mar 2, 2014
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  6. JustAnotherBearsFan99

    JustAnotherBearsFan99 Assistant Head Coach
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    "Would you want to keep him for $5m in salary, $9.2 in total cap cost, and $9m in new cap space freed up or not?"

    From your previous post, I didn't understand that we could get out from under the $18-mil and $20-mil cap hits for Pep. I thought we were screwed and there was nothing we could do to avoid the massive $$$ hits. My bad. I thought we were on the hook for the money no matter what.

    Here's the deal with me and the Peppers situation. My main beef with Pep is his play, or lack of play. I understand we have a lot of holes to fill on this team, but ideally I'd like to see younger players with ceiling brought in. If he would take a $5mil contract, and that would help the team financially, then I guess that would be fine - if he can still play. There were games last year where he looked no better than Shea McClellen to me.

    Hey, on a side note, I'm probably a weird guy with money. I don't make a lot of money. I have to budget closely. My wife and I don't charge anything on our credit card that we can't pay at the end of the month. Maybe this is one reason I find $18-mil and $20-mil cap hits so wasteful if it's going to a player who can't play well anymore. :)
     
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  7. soulman

    soulman Hall of Famer
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    That a good example using a credit card. The cap amortization of an upfront signing bonus is pretty much like that or like a car loan we pay off over time. We hope our paychecks will get bigger making the purchase more affordable and NFL teams are counting on the cap increasing which for a couple of years it didn't and actually shrunk. That's why the Bears and others had to ask their high dollar players to restructure.

    For a $5 mil paycheck and a $9.2 mil cap hit I'd keep him but I don't know if Emery will after what we all saw last year. Pep has most definitely become a guy who needs to play and practice less just like Urlacher and a bad injury also seems possible at his age. But despite that he's still productive and one of if not the best DL they have and not easily replaced if he'll play for that. If not they may as well release him and go after a high dollar FA with some of that money and also draft a pass rusher of some sort.
     
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  8. BSBEARS

    BSBEARS Pro-Bowler

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    Its a great debate, Playing football for 4 to 8 yrs is different than playing the same position. I am a good engineer and good at math, But would suck at being an accountant. Likewise Hageman was a TE his first couple of yrs at Minnesota. Opposing teams had to game plan for him because he was it. I do not like changing positions once they hit the pros either but teaching is non stop and I compare Hageman to Kyle Long type. Raw and needs coaching. Found the below article, seems to to a great debate. I am almost hoping they keep beating him down so we can get them both. Works for me, they say they can both play DE and DT


    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000319248/article/aaron-donald-rashede-hageman-two-different-draft-prospects

     
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  9. JustAnotherBearsFan99

    JustAnotherBearsFan99 Assistant Head Coach
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    That helps me understand it better. Thanks to you and MP, I think I have this "cap thing" down now. Going back to the car finance example, I guess you just hope the car can hold together well & we're not paying on a loan for a worn out car that is totally unreliable.

    BTW, I make peanuts for a salary, and haven't had a decent raise in years, and probably make less money than 95% of the posters on this messageboard. But we paid for our new car (new Honda hybrid) with cash. I try not to take out loans because on my small salary, I can't afford to carry a lot of debt. I also have 2 kids in college right now too. Consequently, I have to be tight with a buck :)

    I'd probably make a terrible GM. I'd be soooooo careful with the team's money. I'd probably be like Papa Bear - throw nickles around like manhole covers :)
     
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    Last edited: Mar 2, 2014
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  10. MPbears68

    MPbears68 Pro-Bowler

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    Lol, buddy, the car loan analogy is perfect.
    You can pay for a new car all upfront if you want. The PRO is that its paid off and you're done. The CON is that is a painful upfront hit.
    Or you can finance it. The PRO is that the upfront hit is greatly lessened. The CON is that you may be still making payments on a car years down the road you are sick of and want to get rid of.

    That's the Peppers/Bears situation in a nutshell, as well as plenty of other players/teams in the NFL.

    Getting back on topic with draft choices, the more I read about Hageman the less I want him. Not at 14 for sure. No more 1st round "projects" please. Accomplished football players not raw athletes please, at least in the 1st. We were fortunate that the Long pick seems to have worked out well. The Shea pick certainly did not. The Hardin pick, despite being more justifiably risky since it was in the 3rd, was a disaster that has left us with no depth at safety.

    At #14, gimme the best player at his position not some guy who is the 4th-5th best at two different positions with "athletic versatility". Btw, Dallas desperately needs DL too and they pick just two spots behind us. If we take Donald, they probably get the #2 guy in Jernigan. I'm betting Nix and Hageman fall and both end up going to base 3-4 teams in the latter-1st.
     
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