ESPN Camp Confidential: Bears

Discussion in 'Chicago Bears' started by riczaj01, Aug 4, 2013.

  1. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    Anyone that doesn't understand that certain positions, including DE, picked round 1 should contribute year one on more then a part time basis doesn't understand the draft very well.

    Anyone that is going to hold an inj during a NFL game against any rookie or any other player, would you have held the same against Shea, or Cutler or Forte or Marshal? You didn't hold it against Carimi, some of you are still pissed he's not a Bear. Fact is DeCastro missed the first several mo's and still came back and got to start for his team, Shea isn't even a starter right now in year 2 and if Izzy was here he'd again be the 3rd man in that rotation. So anyone sitting in here debating the value of a Starting G in the NFL for a guy in a battle of a starting DE job is fooling themselves w/those Bear colored glasses. Shea's production was the equivalent of the amount of games DeCastro played in, and lest we not forget he was drafted by Emery to be a Day 1 3 down starting DE...year 2 and he's still not that.

    Long right now is still in a battle w/Brown a UDFA that was expected to be, at best a 3rd round pick. He might well end up being the starter, but we'll have to see if that's b/c Emery cannot afford to have another mid 1st pick playing backup or if he's actually good enough to be playing. There's also the distinct chance that he's not starting and it will again be another mid first let down. 19th picked G's and DE's should be starting and giving positive contributions day 1. Emery's going to be, at best, .500 this year.
  2. lazar

    lazar Rookie

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    The purpuse of the draft is to bring quality players, but you can't make judgements one way or another after one year. You shouldn't have to wait for their 3rd or 4th year but for 2nd you certainly should. There are plenty players who play well right away, but there are also those who play well their first year and then by the 3rd they are out of the league. You shold never judge a player after his first year no matter how he played becouse often it doesn't tell you what he's future will be like. And also lets remember that you don't look for quick fixes in the draft, you plan ahead and pick players that will hopefully be great players down the road. As for Emery... he is doing great thing. Right now I don't know if he has an eye for talent, for that we will know more after this season. But what I do now is that he does have a right vision of this team and what needed to be done so that Bears can be successful. Angelo didn't have that. With that said I don't agree with this view that both he and Lovie were terrible. They were good actually, but they had this huge hole in their vision of what football should be and it buried them. Defense, running the ball, special teams was their formula and they stick to it even when they traded for Cutler. Look around at all those teams who either drafted or traded for qb, what was the plan there? Well, qb immediately become the focus and center of those teams that's for sure. And that's the way it should be done. What happened with the Bears? Well they went about their business like nothing happened. Look how much changes the offense took in two offseasons since Emery came and hoe little was done 3 years with Angelo. So that's way you should be happy with Emery. He has the right vision, doesn't ignore any position, and whatever weakness Bears have he attacked it, something that Angelo dodn't do. Of course, if the players drafted are busts then everything else won't matter but right now no one can know how good or bad those players are.
  3. MPbears68

    MPbears68 Pro-Bowler

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    Ric, I'm with you on the Shea pick. He was a 2nd round worthy player we over-drafted who isn't even a good fit for our current D system. There were better choices. Point taken. Might have been a different story if our base D was a 3-4 and we were short an OLB. I didn't like the Long pick either at first (if you recall, I wanted Eifert when our number came up and he was still there...he went 2 picks later). But I'm going to withhold judgment on that until he's had a season under his belt to look at.

    I do think he will end up starting by the time week 1 rolls around.
    I do think he has exceptional athletic ability that is raw even by rookie standards so coaching (Kromer) is key here.
    I do think he will finish the year a much better player than he starts it.
    And I do think--call me crazy if you want--that he's a future T down the road and that's was part of the motivation.
    JMO
  4. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    MP, I agree, but my point in the original post is:

    Decastro/Rhodes or Floyd > Shea/Long. I agree w/you also that Shea is the weaker link in that grouping but it doesn't change the fact that it's a weaker coupling. And b/c Emery constantly reaches he creates more reason to reach the next year, it's exponential and it's what got JA in trouble and put weaker players on the field.

    Long might well start, but I'll wait to see how he plays in regular season games to decide for certain. I did the same w/Shea, I waited to see in reg season games, and I wasn't wrong. From what Trestie has stated he might well run a 6 man rotation at OL, I would assume that means Brown and Long, but it might well mean Webb/Scott. A lot of theories from the analysts is that Brown is going to be the swing G this year, I would assume to take over LG next year.

    I really don't think they plan on moving Long to T though, that's what everyone has said, except from anyone in the Bears, then again Emery said Shea was a 3 down DE....
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  5. Mr. Deliverance

    Mr. Deliverance Guest

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    What exactly don't you understand about there being many Bears fans that know Cutler sucks and he is not the guy? You are backing a turd. Do you realize that you sound like the Grossman and Tebow groupies?
  6. MPbears68

    MPbears68 Pro-Bowler

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    I hear ya. And I agree that DeCastro was highest rated player on the board and he was in a position of need. He should have been the pick. There was no way to know that he'd have a PS ACL tear. To my knowledge he hadn't had injury concerns at Stanford.

    Not giving Emery a pass here (he's the boss and makes the final call) but I think the prior coaching regime had a lot to do with the Shea pick. Tice kept offering false assurances on Carimi and the OL in general ("better schemes", more "pixie dust") and I think Lovie pushed hard for a DE. Remember, at that time we had 2 vet DEs getting up there--Pep and Izz--and Woot had been a big disappointment thus far with 2 injury plagued seasons. We definitely were thin on paper there as no one could have known that Woot would come on so strong and stay healthy like he did in 2012. Just a guess, but I see at a reasonable conspiracy theory.

    Way too soon to condemn the Long pick though, even if I wasn't a fan of it at first glance. Since Kromer has turned mid and late rounders into pro bowl OLmen before several times, I gotta have confidence that he can hone Long into a stellar player. The dude is physically and athletically impressive and seems to have a strong work ethic too (hello, J'Marcus?). He lacks experience and technique. That is Kromer's job.

    Yeah, he's a G for now as that's a less demanding position to learn at first. But a guy with his body style, agility, and feet has the tools to play T down the road should the need arise. And it tends to arise. We both know that quality Ts are harder to come by than quality Gs. The fact that the team hasn't talked about that off-in-the-future-possibility means nothing right now. We may need a new RT as soon as next season.
  7. lazar

    lazar Rookie

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    ßearz ßuckz:
    You do realize that you didn't respond with an actual argument on anything that I wrote. I'm not backing anyone, and you would know that if you actually used you're brain while you read. Reading without thinking is useless, try it sometimes. I don't have an agenda here, I'm here to discuss with arguments knowing that I could be wrong. You are here to put your dogma in the open and to insult anyone who doesn't agree with you. Grupies as I see it are people who are blinded by something, be it love or hate and with them you can't really have a normal conversation. It's seems to me that you belong there and that's why you know the groupie sound. You've been part of that scene for years.
  8. Mr. Deliverance

    Mr. Deliverance Guest

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    Yo I'm not arguing with a simpleton that dismisses Cutler's ACTUAL performance against the good teams, including the Packers. Its a waste of time arguing points with low functioning Bears fans that can't defend Cutler's record against those teams.
  9. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    He's a Bear now so as long as he's playing, and at a high level I'm fine w/it, T, G, C, DE don't care just get him on the field and contribute w/a quality play.
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  10. JPosh2012

    JPosh2012 Pro-Bowler

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    Thing thing we need to remember about this part draft was that A LOT of teams wanted to tradedowna nd not a lot wanted to trade up so it makes it hard when the supply to trade up is more than demand. Remember the Raiders for moving down nine picks only got a 2nd round when it usually would net a lot more (3->12)

    With how poor this past QB was I think Cutler would be a lot better than the crap QB's in last year's draft.

    Would you have been okay with Chandler Jones if we took him instead of Shea?
  11. JPosh2012

    JPosh2012 Pro-Bowler

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    I still think that Lovie told Phil what to draft in 2012.
  12. MPbears68

    MPbears68 Pro-Bowler

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    JP,

    I kinda do too. Lets not forget that Emery was brand new on the job then (only there 2 months or so) and he didn't have his scouting personnel in yet. That happened this year. Pretty much had to rely on the existing staff including Lovie and JA's old leftover scouting team. So I think it's a distinct possibility that Emery got snookered a bit even though that doesn't excuse him fully.

    And, yes, with the benefit of hindsight Chandler Jones was the better pick as a traditional 4-3 DE.
  13. short faced bear

    short faced bear Assistant Head Coach DBS Writer

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    Agree 100%. Shea's development depends on a specific hybrid/rover type D. As of right now he's not a hand in the dirt 3 down player stuffing the run and defeating blocks as the starters did last season. Add in the brittleness of Wooton and the age of Pep and Izzy when he was here it makes the pick even more baffling. I would have felt better if they picked DeCastro or Zeitler. It seemed the Shea pick was meant to flummox Green Bay more than providing an impact to a 4-3 defense.

    There's a difference between a risk and a gamble. With a risk you can recover but with gambles you cannot. Emery can't keep rolling the dice even if he is indeed the smartest guy in the room.
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  14. MPbears68

    MPbears68 Pro-Bowler

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    Lets also be honest about this past draft class. It was ok in the middle but pretty weak at the top (1st round+) outside of OL and CB. The "wow factor" positions were thin. The QBs sucked. The WRs and RBs were nothing special. And the DLs/passrushers drafted early had shallow college resumes with one-year-only production in most cases. Once you got past the huge run of OLs in the first 10-12, there weren't many must-have options left. Lots of teams prob would have been happy to trade back and grab an extra pick in the 3rd-4th. I doubt Phil's phone was ringing off the hook that night with requests to trade up.
  15. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    JP to be honest, I hadn't heard much of C Jones, so I didn't know much about him, I can tell you his size is much more prototypical DE though, so I would have been better w/it then Shea. And compared to how the two played on the field this past year I wouldn't be complaining about Jones now. Chances are we wouldn't be complaining about Izzy either b/c Jones would be the unquestioned starter and Wootton, healthy or inj'd wouldn't be a major factor.

    I'd still complain that they didn't go after DeCastro b/c of just how flat bad the OL has been. I'm a firm believer that good teams draft the highest rated player on the board for one of their need positions, and not reach for one need over the other. I'm also not a fan drafting guys strictly on their athletism, it's something JA did and it failed more often then not...and it seems Emery likes to do the same thing.
  16. Bearstuff

    Bearstuff Yes, in the woods. Staff Member SuperFan

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    I'll also point out that the following QB's have SB rings, despite a skillset and mindset inferior to Jay:
    Trent Dilfer
    Brad Johnson
    Jeff Hostetler
    Doug Williams
    Mark Rypien
    Arguably: Jim Plunkett, Joe Theismann, Jim McMahon

    Are they the "rule"? No, they are the exception (16%). Still, they prove that TEAMS win championships, not solely QB's.

    You can waste a year of your life hoping for Bear failure to prove your point if you want. I, on the other hand, will hope for the best, all while recognizing that our QB needs help for the team to be successful. If Rex Grossman can get us within 30 minutes of a championship, Jay Cutler can at least give us a shot. If that doesn't happen, so be it, but I won't have wasted a year rooting against my favorite team so that I can stand tall and tell my internet friends "I told you so". At least I will get some joy out of the year.
  17. JPosh2012

    JPosh2012 Pro-Bowler

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    I liked Chandler Jones a lot when he was in College and I was hoping the Bears would have taken him. I am still not a fan of the Shea pick and likely won't be unless he has a breakout year. I still say moving him to LB is our best bet.

    I agree 100% about the fact that they should have gone for DeCastro but we need to remember that dumb and dumber (Lovie and Tice) claimed that the O-Line was okay but sadly Phil fell for it and we all saw what happened.

    Agreed!
  18. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    No, I know that Lovie/Tice had a large say in this draft, but even given that the primary reason teams wanted Shea was for his speed as a OLB in a 3-4, which the team was not running....in that aspect Jones probably would have been better. That pick stunk of the Rex pick when "supposedly" GB was real high on him so the Bears grabbed him instead. Chicago needs to stop reacting to what GB is looking at doing, and do what's best for Chicago.

    I still think Shea can be a good player, in a hybrid system or as a rover, but as a DE he's just not big/strong enough...he tried to add weight this offseason and he was then to slow so he had to lose that weight....so he's never going to be strong enough to just Bull a OT, and he's to small, even for his speed, to just rush by one either....so in this case, no matter what the Shea pick was a miss since Emery wanted a 3 down DE; now it's just a matter of scavenging that pick into something usefull like OLB.

    I agree w/someone that said Greene/Bostic/McClellen sounds nice as future LB's. Now add DJ, Briggs, or Anderson into that mix and you have a hell of a 3-4 LB core.


    As for Long, I just would have rather had Rhodes(b/c we need CB depth for next year) or Floyd(b/c of the DL issues now). If both of them had not been there, and it was between guys like Te'O/Eifert then I would have been more okay w/the Long pick even as a reach.
  19. JPosh2012

    JPosh2012 Pro-Bowler

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    Agreed totally. If GB had taken him just think McClellan and Matthews as the OLB's BUT with a good O-Line we would have been able to stop it.

    Agreed 100%. I still do think he was a miss but I think if he can an OLB we can somewhat save the pick.

    I think that was me who suggested it. The only problem with a 3-4 LB core at the moment is that we have no NT who can play it. Right now the D-Line is built for the 4-3. We have the LB's to go 3-4 but not the D-Line.

    I would have gone with Rhodes personally because then you could let Jennings or Tillman walk in FA and already have a replacement.
  20. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    Oh I know we are not set at DL for the 3-4 or a hybrid, but everything else is set, I think they might well try and draft one next year though.

    That was my thought process also, if they sign Cutler they are going to have a hard time resigning both Tillman and Jennings, and Rhodes then steps into the one that is let go.
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