If we had an opportunity to sign OT Jonathan Martin cheap, should we do that?

Discussion in 'Chicago Bears' started by JustAnotherBearsFan99, Feb 14, 2014.

  1. butkus3595

    butkus3595 Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2013
    Messages:
    830
    Likes Received:
    351
    Ratings:
    +385 / 0 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    17ß
    To equate him to J Webb is a mistake in my view. J Webb didn't play at Stanford and block Andrew Lucks blind side. At no point in his career was he ever as successful as Martin. Further Webbs work ethic and intelligence were question marks before the draft and his bad body language at the Texas vs the nation game turned a lot of teams off on him. That's never been in question with Martin on the other hand. My view is Martin wasn't fit to play left tackle in the NFL. He's more likely an excellent right tackle or guard(he excelled at run blocking in college). Do you think you can play for Jim harbaugh and not be mentally tough? He may have been viewed as soft because unlike incognito, jerry, and pouncey he had a brain in his head and was highly intellectual.

    As for his drive/work ethic...this is from his scouting report: Martin brings a work ethic that seemed to be infectious across Stanford's offensive line and has the on field attitude you like in your tackle. He also brings a special toughness and has played well through some minor injuries. His teammates say he has a true desire to be the best at his position.
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. JustAnotherBearsFan99

    JustAnotherBearsFan99 Coordinator SuperFan DBS Writer

    Joined:
    May 21, 2012
    Messages:
    8,418
    Likes Received:
    1,730
    Ratings:
    +1,867 / 0 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    117ß
    This ^^^^^

    I'd be thinking I was pretty much trapped in a hell hole. Think about it. You're the new guy. The half-wits are the veterans who are supposed to be running the place. You try to fit in and become "one of the guys" but these guys are nuts. Real nuts. Finally you just can't pretend and run with these apes. The monkeys are running the zoo here and have the power.

    Who's going to listen to you if you complain to the head coach? Let's get real here. Nobody is going to listen to anything you say.

    I would (if I had the balls) done exactly what Martin did. I'd just leave. In my eyes that is the gutsy move. He put his entire career on the line by doing something like this. Right now it looks like his decision could help others who may be subjected to lunatics like Ritchie Incognito. Martin got a fair shake from the NFL here, with the independent investigator. Do you think he'd have gotten ANYTHING remotely like that from the hell hole franchise in Miami. Don't make me laugh.

    Watch what happens with Martin moving forward. He'll probably go to the San Francisco 49ers and I'll bet he'll have a rock solid career. The guy has the talent. He'll want to prove himself once he's on a team that can appreciate him. But don't take my word for it. Just watch what happens with this guy and his career. And then watch what happens with Incognito......stick a fork in him. His career is done. The bully will spend the rest of his life considered a half-wit idiot who blew a a career in the NLF.
    • Like Like x 1
  3. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2006
    Messages:
    20,658
    Likes Received:
    2,199
    Ratings:
    +2,487 / 6 / -8
    ßearz ßuckz:
    314ß
    what he did in college means jack son, all the guys that made it to the NFL where good college players, or had the athletic ability to give them a shot at the nfl. LT for the best qb to come out of college since Manning, ya bet that was a tough job. Certain positions don't need brain surgeons, I don't need my LT to be able to out think a qb, I need him to be a road grader or a brick wall, and being smart and soft do neither of those. If he's as mentally tough as he should have been, he could have handled it what was happening over a 2 year period w/out cracking or quitting on his team. Fact is, not just Incognito thought this guy needed toughening up, Pouncey and other players did also, no one on that team before during or after backed Martin, not even the other one that were getting worked over by Richie and Pouncey, no one on that team felt he would be missed, yet you think he'd be an improvement on the Bears? Nope, and if he is needed then there is a bigger issue on the OL then anyone is thinking.

    I wouldn't take either of these guys, or pouncey for that matter.
  4. little bear

    little bear Assistant Head Coach

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2008
    Messages:
    11,491
    Likes Received:
    528
    Ratings:
    +580 / 0 / -2
    ßearz ßuckz:
    140ß
    Back to the main question:

    Yes, I would sign him if the price is right. He's had a good college career, he's young, talented and we definitely need OL depth, especially if we're not gonna re-sign Scott and Britton.
    Mills has been a huge surprise this year, so I wouldn't call Martin an upgrade over Mills. But it would still be a nice addition.

    P.s.: Incognito has always been a classless piece of shit. Second dirtiest player in the league after Suh. Period. Really hope his NFL career is over. That kind of player doesn't belong in any locker room.
  5. The Benjamin

    The Benjamin George Halas Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2006
    Messages:
    45,744
    Likes Received:
    1,497
    Ratings:
    +1,631 / 6 / -8
    ßearz ßuckz:
    279ß
    Not sure if you keep missing my question, or if you are ignoring it Ric. Lemme ask one more time

    What do you define as bullying?

    You keep saying what he was doing was not bullying. So I am just curious what your definition of bullying is.
  6. 4th and 26

    4th and 26 George Halas Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2005
    Messages:
    38,219
    Likes Received:
    458
    Ratings:
    +498 / 3 / -5
    ßearz ßuckz:
    119ß
    I would not take him because he is damage goods.
  7. JustAnotherBearsFan99

    JustAnotherBearsFan99 Coordinator SuperFan DBS Writer

    Joined:
    May 21, 2012
    Messages:
    8,418
    Likes Received:
    1,730
    Ratings:
    +1,867 / 0 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    117ß
    I probably shouldn't have started this thread because all of us have pretty strong feelings on the subject - and none of us are going to talk others out of their position on it :)

    But I did want to add one thing (Ric, you know I'm an oline nut). I understand where you are coming from here. But I did want to stick up for the OL guys as being pretty sharp cookies. They're not the lunkheads most folks believe them to be. In fact, they score highest on the Wonderlic each year too. It's a much more complex position to play than most folks realize. It's not just blocking one guy on every play. The defenses now are incredibly complex and each OL guy often has multiple blocking tiers to execute in sequence, and they need to know how to pick up complex stunts and blitzes. I know you realize this, but just wanted to point it out that the BEST oline guys are smart guys too. So there is value in having an OL guy that is sharp enough to execute complex plays against complex defenses.

    The best coaches discern when to pick up a guy in a value situation like this, where it makes sense to invest a modest amount in a guy who can pay big dividends (Belichick has done this for many years, but other sharp coaches do the same). If the guy doesn't pan out, you've lost very little.....just cut him. But if he does pan out, you have added a key piece, making your team stronger for multiple years (great OL often have very long careers in the NFL). Watch what happens with Martin moving foward, compared to Incognito. Some team will take a shot at Martin, and probably hit a home run with him. I have no doubt that Martin would fit in fine with a Marc Trestman team & locker room. This isn't MIami.

    I see Martin as a pretty tough guy. Certainly tougher than an Incognito. What he did took balls. I admire him for it. The NFL, moving forward, will be a better work place for players because of what he did. I love that.

    I don't think Martin is coming here anyway, now that folks are saying San Francisco is probably going to pursue him. So it's a moot point.
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2014
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Chicago_66

    Chicago_66 Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2013
    Messages:
    555
    Likes Received:
    317
    Ratings:
    +343 / 0 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    13ß
    I was on board with what you were saying until I got to this part. Comparing Incognito to Martin, moving forward, is not in anyway a fair comparison. Martin is a 2 year pro who has youth behind him.. Incognito is a guy, while very dirty, is nearing 31 and already had plenty of years behind him. Of course they're not going to match up in the next 5 years.. Martin is on the upswing of his career age wise and Incognito is nearing the tail end of his. I think Martin would have fit in here, but after this fiasco I wouldn't want him anywhere near us. He's just bad press and, in my opinion, not a super team player. I really disagree how he never attempted even once to keep this within the organization. I don't want Bears players to go running to the media with every issue.. it should be dealt with in house, or at least attempted.

    That brings me to the second part.. I don't see Martin as a tough guy.. and certainly am not going to compare toughness to Incognito. I'm not saying dirty = tough, but to call what he did tough and saying it takes balls, in my humble opinion, a load of crock. What he did takes zero cajones, in fact it's the biggest bitch move you could have pulled out of all the options available to him. Incognito and the other lineman were giving him a hard time and besides the occasional "fuck you man" he never once raised concern. I read through the Wells report and it seems like Martin joined in the taunting of other places, talked shit right back, and willingly spent loads of time with his alleged bully. If the physical route is not your cup of tea that does not mean you run to the media and make a shit storm for the team that drafted you and put an ugly media scope on your fellow players. That looks bad for everyone top to bottom and should be used as a last resort. Loads of teammates (well beyond just fellow "bully" OL) said Martin and Incognito were inseparable and considered the two to be like brothers. They constantly hung out and he never once took Incognito aside and told him "Hey man.. I know we give each other shit but the stuff llike ___________ and _________ and _______ truly truly bother me. I would appreciate it if you would knock it off.. it's really fucking with me mentally and it's affecting my performance." I don't think you can say that's too personal because Incognito is one of two fellow players that he actually divulged his suicidal thoughts to. He felt comfortable enough to tell him he's thought about offing himself and has mental issues yet won't raise issue to the "bullying" ? I saw plenty of examples of Incognito reaching out to Martin in a compassionate way.. truly worried about his friend. Sure Incognito is an asshole but I think that overall he really cared about the guy.. and I think if he had known that how this allegedly affected Martin.. even in the half.. he would have let up and told the rest of the guys to knock it off as well. OKay.. so Martin goes down that route and nothing happens or it even gets worse.. then you go to HR and tell them. You go to the OL coach and tell him.. the OL coach seemed like a dick so maybe you skip him and talk to Philbin. There is no reason to go from accepting this treatment for years and never objecting to going full nuclear and bring that fucked up media into the picture.

    To me, the whole thing is fishy. He's saving voicemails for months? He's a Stanford grad, with apparent at least a decent IQ, a huge physique, and he can't say anything? He doesn't try to talk to anyone in the coaching staff/front office? His Mom is a Harvard Law grad and having a degree like that you'd know how to handle bullying in the workplace. I think some of the shit Martin said was calculated and the way he went about it just stinks to me. I'm not saying this is for sure the case, but I have my doubts about the whole thing. Even if you drop all of that, Martin handled it completely wrong and I wouldn't want an asshole nonteam player like that in the Bears locker room. Hell plus you add in the fact that before each season Philbin held a meeting that said if you have issues do not hesitate to come forward, in confidence, and it'll be handled. I just would want nothing to do with him.
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Warlock

    Warlock Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2013
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    38
    Ratings:
    +43 / 0 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    Just because these groups find that behavior acceptable, doesn't mean that everyone finds it acceptable. If some co-worker is bullying me, I'm more than capable of smashing them to pieces, but I'm too intelligent to get caught up in the legal/criminal rammifications of such action... at the end of the day, no one should be forced to deal with a hostile work environment. If you enjoy that kind of thing, good for you... either find likeminded indiviudals to share it with or keep it to yourself. Choosing not to fist fight someone at your place of employment. when you're being disrespected, doesn't make you a panzy... it makes you intelligent, because all you have to do is speak-up and get your co-worker fired for being a douchebag.

    Additionally, it's not a normal job... Martin simply can't go find the same job at another Company. The team owns his rights, so he shouldn't be forced to hurt his career by simply choosing to leave a bad situation. Martin has just as much right be play football as Incognito or Pouncey.
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Warlock

    Warlock Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2013
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    38
    Ratings:
    +43 / 0 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    Then you didn't read the report... On one side Incognito showed concern, then you read his texts to Pouncey around the same time and know it was just him nervously trying to appease Martin for the shit he's done/said. Typically behavior when people are afraid of getting in trouble... "hey buddy, want to go to the movies?" then later on, "you didn't tell so and so that I did whatever?". Incognito is a PoS and deserves everything that's coming his way.
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Henry Burris

    Henry Burris Head Coach

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2007
    Messages:
    19,222
    Likes Received:
    2,110
    Ratings:
    +2,291 / 8 / -8
    ßearz ßuckz:
    173ß
    I think the thing most everyone is overlooking in deciding whether or not to keep Martin is the drug use. I haven't paid much attention to the report, but was he doing it on his own, or was he kind of bullied into it?
  12. Warlock

    Warlock Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2013
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    38
    Ratings:
    +43 / 0 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    Also, there is a reason to go from "accepting it" for years to going full nuclear... sometimes you just can't handle it anymore and all that shit that's been building up, finally comes to a head.
    • Like Like x 1
  13. JustAnotherBearsFan99

    JustAnotherBearsFan99 Coordinator SuperFan DBS Writer

    Joined:
    May 21, 2012
    Messages:
    8,418
    Likes Received:
    1,730
    Ratings:
    +1,867 / 0 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    117ß
    That's what I keep coming back to. The world is changing. The NFL is changing. Players, fans, coaches - everyone - might as well realize this. And frankly, the old school tactics of letting a thug "toughen up" a co-worker doesn't work anyway. At the least you risk what happened - losing a player who has talent, and at the worst, you risk what you read about all the time now, about a guy who just brings a gun to work and kills people. It's nuts.

    I've worked in a high-testosterone environment most of my life - in the Marine Corps and over 30 years in law enforcement. One thing I've learned is that when the monkeys run the zoo like in Miami, bad things happen. You read about it all the time where military units and police sub-units get into some really bad stuff. It's an unhealthy mentality that goes viral. Good units, on the other hand, work together to build people up. It's not about "toughening up" people, but rather encouraging them to be a valuable team member. In the Marines or as a cop, those guys are people you're entrusting your life to - every day. You put on the body armor, load up the guns and go to work. The LAST person I would ever bully in those situations are the ones on my team that help keep me alive to go home when my work is done.

    People here rationalize that it's okay for Miami to let thugs like Mike "Free Hernandez" Pouncey and Ingognito bully co-workers because it's an "alpha male" environment. I think otherwise. I think a lot of folks are living in the past. This stuff doesn't fly anymore, and it doesn't work anyway. So why do it? Miami shot themselves in the foot here. Martin will land on a good team that treats him like a human being, and he'll probably flourish with a fine career. Miami's loss.
  14. The Benjamin

    The Benjamin George Halas Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2006
    Messages:
    45,744
    Likes Received:
    1,497
    Ratings:
    +1,631 / 6 / -8
    ßearz ßuckz:
    279ß
    Everyone has a breaking point
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Chicago_66

    Chicago_66 Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2013
    Messages:
    555
    Likes Received:
    317
    Ratings:
    +343 / 0 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    13ß
    I'm not defending Incognito, he's definitely an asshole, but to say that Martin is an innocent victim here is asinine and clearly you shuffled through the report without actually retaining anything from it. (see, I can make bullshit statements about reading it too).

    I never said that the point where Incognito reached out after the blow-up is what I'm talking about, he's definitely trying to cover his ass at that point. I think even if I was friends with someone I'd be pretty pissed too if they threw me, my entire OL unit, and the Dolphins franchise under the bus. To me there were plenty of texts that showed they were friends. Do I talk to my friends like that? No. But thats how that whole group talked to each other and MARTIN TALKED RIGHT BACK IN THE SAME DAMN MANNER. That's encouraging the behavior to continue. You look at the Las Vegas trip. He said hey, I can't go I'm dealing with too much. Did Incognito talk shit at that point? Did he call him a giant pussy and a stinky pakistani? No.. at that point.. when Martin made it clear he was distressed and offering to pay.. he said something along the lines of "Hey man don't worry about it, hope you're okay". When Martin confided to Incognito about his depression he was supportive. I feel like I'm overstating this, but I guess a lot of you can't read when I write it.. I'm not defending Incognitos actions. I'm merely making the point that Martin is just as bad, in a different way. That is never how you handle the situation. It's ridiculous to run to the media and cause a shit storm when you haven't taken a single damn step in curbing the problem. Not one!
  16. The Benjamin

    The Benjamin George Halas Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2006
    Messages:
    45,744
    Likes Received:
    1,497
    Ratings:
    +1,631 / 6 / -8
    ßearz ßuckz:
    279ß
    I am not sure that the whole group talked about killing someone's whole family or running a train on their loved ones.

    But, not many friends/co-workers would. Maybe Incognito thinks that is normal behavior amongst friends
  17. Chicago_66

    Chicago_66 Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2013
    Messages:
    555
    Likes Received:
    317
    Ratings:
    +343 / 0 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    13ß
    That's bullshit, you don't go full nuclear first thing.. half the world would be a wasteland if people followed that logic. That's like hearing about a mass shooting and being like "Well.. I mean they were picking on him." You don't go to a higher figure in the chain of command to get him to deal with it.. you don't try to talk it out verbally.. you don't lift a single finger.. worse yet.. you participate in the teasing of others yourself and talk shit right back with no talk of stopping to speak of? And then you go full Rambo.. thats your next move? That's ridiculous. Once again.. I'm not saying Incognito is this faultless icon of goodness in the world.. he's a dirty player and an asshole.. but Martin handled it awfully and someone who has a Mother with a Harvard Law degree and attended Standford himself should have enough sense to know that. There's an HR department for a reason. Coach Philbin talked before the season about coming forward to him if there were problems. How can people ignore this? Martin put a terrible light on the organization he's playing for and, to me, there's no room for that on our squad. You come and tell Kromer.. you tell Trest.. you tell Emery.. you tell SOMEONE before you go crying to the media about how they all mistreated you.

    And you bring up the fact Incognito tried to cover his ass.. what about Martin saving a voicemail for months? Sounds like Mommy with the degree might have imparted a few lessons on what it takes for a workplace lawsuit to little sonny boy.
  18. butkus3595

    butkus3595 Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2013
    Messages:
    830
    Likes Received:
    351
    Ratings:
    +385 / 0 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    17ß
    2 time all American, and a 2nd round draft pick thought to be one of the best tackles In the draft. Performed well enough as a rookie that the dolphins were willing to let their long time left tackle Jake Long go and have him be the replacement. That's enough for me SON. Again....read his scouting report....HE WAS A ROAD GRADER!! Pouncey is a thug and a half wit, I KNOW THAT FOR A FACT(from more than 1 guy who has played with him). And if you want any more of an example of the inmates running the asylum, in that fine book incognito wanted destroyed, pouncey was fined $100 for an FBI investigation in a murder, Martin was fined more than that for being an alleged puss for not wanting to bang strippers. Perhaps he should have aided in a murder to prove how mentally tough he is eh? As for the other guy, you think a fringe player who has been cut more than once is going to say anything bad about anyone running a team? Come on now....I know you're smarter than that...right?

    I'll take the word of his former head coach more than 3 half wit thugs and you when it comes to his mental toughness:

    “Coach Harbaugh emphasized that he never doubted Martin’s physical or mental toughness, and he believes that Martin can continue to have a successful career in the NFL. Coach Harbaugh also said that the atmosphere in the Stanford locker room, in his view, was not materially different from that of the San Francisco 49ers’ locker room,” the report said.
  19. Chicago_66

    Chicago_66 Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2013
    Messages:
    555
    Likes Received:
    317
    Ratings:
    +343 / 0 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    13ß
    So are you condoning how Martin went about this? I mean you're ignoring the fact I've said multiple times I'm not saying what Incognito did was right. I'm saying Martin handled it poorly. Since everyone is picking parts of what I've said and not saying a word on the rest I'll have to ask outright.. Are you disagreeing? Do you think this is how anyone should handle bullying in the NFL? Not say a single word or raise a single objection until you run to ESPN to make this their story of the week?
  20. Chicago_66

    Chicago_66 Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2013
    Messages:
    555
    Likes Received:
    317
    Ratings:
    +343 / 0 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    13ß
    Also, I gotta say, when taken out of context of course it looks horrible. I wouldn't let that slide, talking shit about my family.. but that's me. I've heard friends talk to each other in ways that would be appalling to some people. Honestly nothing I read in there bothered me at all, I've heard twice as worse on Xbox chat or even with grade schoolers in certain areas. Once you're acting that way long enough it isn't shocking to you. The racism bit kinda struck me wrong, but I'm not in a place to judge that.

Share This Page