If we had an opportunity to sign OT Jonathan Martin cheap, should we do that?

Discussion in 'Chicago Bears' started by JustAnotherBearsFan99, Feb 14, 2014.

  1. The Benjamin

    The Benjamin George Halas Staff Member

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    Again, I did not read the report, but do we know 100% that he did not try talking to the coaches first?
  2. Warlock

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    Come on man, you said it first and I replied to your usage of the term, don't try and blame your poor word choice on me...

    Martin did what he did for his own reasons, maybe he felt that approaching the front office would only make his situation worse. You keep talking about Philbin, like you know for afact that he would have handled the situation... for a HC to not be aware of this kind of shit, that tells me he's incompetent and I probably wouldn't have gone to him either. The HC sets the tone and should be aware of all the comings and goings of his players. His inaction and/or lack of control is more than likely why Martin went outside the chain of command.
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  3. Warlock

    Warlock Veteran

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    That said, I'm a fan of keeping things in-house, but sometimes that's not realistic.
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  4. butkus3595

    butkus3595 Pro-Bowler

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    You're ignoring the fact that he didn't go to ESPN first though...he checked himself into a hospital.

    http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9904868/jonathan-martin-miami-dolphins-leaves-team

    ESPN didn't get wind of the whole bullying thing from Martin, and it wasn't till incognito was suspended by the team that his name was associated with Martin.
  5. The Benjamin

    The Benjamin George Halas Staff Member

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    This
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  6. JustAnotherBearsFan99

    JustAnotherBearsFan99 Coordinator SuperFan DBS Writer

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    I thought that was the bottom-line in all of this. This is what builds championship teams on ANY level in ANY team sport. The dysfunctional sewer in Miami isn't the way to win championships. Quite the contrary.
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  7. rich1978

    rich1978 Veteran

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    Im with Ric and Chicago66 among others on this.

    Martin maybe doesnt seem to have the mentality for the NFL. I've played 4 different team sports across 3 continents in my time and although never got past club rugby, semi pro soccer, university / amateur football, high school cricket, i've seen a lot of different types of locker rooms. there is no ONE type of locker room. its Miami's fault for letting this happen if they didnt weant that type of locker room or for drafting a sensitive soul like Martin if he so clearly didnt fit in. I've played with a load of guys like incognito in my rugby days, you get hazed, you take it, you give some shit back, you earn your stripes. these are the locker rooms that generally have the greatest loyalty and cameraderie in my experience. I've seen a lot of full-on shit happen to rooks and a lot of it unpleasant but that's the nature of the beast. I'm sure if truth be told there's a few of you on here who can tell some pretty grisly tales from Frathouse initiations and probably still count those days as some of the best of your life!??

    I've read a lot of the excerpts and while its full-on, I didnt read anything that really shocked me. I've seen it all before. so if a limey like me who has never got past the beer-swilling yahoos in the pub rugby team, or past the semi-pro wannabes on the soccer field has experienced all this then it hardly sounds out of the ordinary!

    Miami screwed up, Incognito is probably a self-confessed asshole and Martin needs to wise up. much ado about nothing.
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2014
  8. Warlock

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    You never did it as a career, so it's not the same thing... putting up with it because you want to is different than putting up with it because you have to. Additionally, everyone has different thresholds for abuse. I've dealt with similar trials before, but just because I can handle it, doesn't mean that it's OK or not damaging to the individual. I had a pretty fucked up childhood, so dealing with assholes wasn't difficult incomparison. Martin probably grew up in a good household and never had to deal with too much adversity in his social life, thus what Incognito and Pouncey did to him was a shock to his system... good people don't treat one another that way. I can be a bastard to my friends, but I built those relationships with them... if I tried some of the shit I do with good friends to co-workers, it would make them uncomfortable quite quickly, because *gasp* I have a different relationship with them.

    Regardless of the self-justifying bullshit you want to spew, in a workplace, you shouldn't have to put up with harassment/bullying if you do not choose to do so. Martin clearly had enough and left, like any resaonable person would do... that shouldn't affect his career, because the behavior he had to endure was not acceptable to any reasonable person. At the end of the day, Incognito and Pouncey were poor leaders (not to mention the coaching staff)... they didn't get Martin to buy into what they were selling. If they had done so, Martin would have happily accepted all the harrassment/bullying... just like all the Soldiers, fratboys, players, etc... who do. People will sacrifice a lot for causes they believe in and/or leaders that they trust. That's lockerroom 101. Just treating someone like shit, without earning it, is a quick way to end up with this type of situation.
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  9. JustAnotherBearsFan99

    JustAnotherBearsFan99 Coordinator SuperFan DBS Writer

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    One positive is that with Emery and Trestman in charge here in Chicago, we will never see a locker room out of control like this. I think if our guys tried wearing "Free Hernandez" gear, it wouldn't fly. And if they ran off a top OL guy like Kyle Long, it wouldn't fly either. I like to think we have classier players here. I like to think Trestman has a better grip on his team than they did in Miami. It sounds like a real crapfest down there.
  10. rich1978

    rich1978 Veteran

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    self

    'self -justifying bullshit'? charming!

    I never played NFL for a living of course, although I played semi-pro soccer for a living, and its a lot more important to keep your job on the team when the money you are earning is the difference between food on the table or not, so I'm probably better qualified to discuss locker room dynamics than you are! Excuse me if I dont have much sympathy for a professional sportsman earning multiple millions of pounds a year. Its a job... but like no other, you man up and you deal with it, we all deal with assholes or stressful and testing situations each day, its called life. There are different locker rooms, different types of people, your view isn't the de facto right one. Miami knew their locker room dynamic, they knew OL are a different breed even amongst NFL players, they knew how their shit operates. They should either have put a lid on it early if they didnt like it, or they shouldn't have drafted such a shrinking violet, but right or wrong, that kind of stuff goes on all over the world in a thousand different walks of life, always has and always will. Maybe you'd care to re-read what I said again before jumping to conclusions and this time climb down off the soapbox and leave the knee-jerk one-world sanctimonious bs at the door?
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  11. BearDownUnder

    BearDownUnder Veteran

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    Regardless of all the off field Miami stuff he just wasn't much good was he? I can't see how any of this and being out of the game could be good for him. Plenty of other cheap OT's to go after who don't come with baggage.

    Put it simply if he played defense I might have some interest.
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  12. Warlock

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    You're justifying this situation because you went thru something similar, you're trying to make the treatment you endured seem acceptable. That's the difference between us... I also went thru the something similar, but I'm not trying to convince myself or others that it's acceptable... because it's not acceptable. Individual people vary, because experiences vary and we're tempered by those experiences. Just because you have delusioned yourself into thinking that treating others in this manner is simply commonplace and thus acceptable, doesn't change the truth of the matter. Most of my experiences on the subject come from the Military, so I too dealt with it as part of my career. The fact that you differenciate between a millionaire and not a millionaire tells me much about your character... a person is a person, dealing with harassment whether you play in the NFL or flip burgers at MacDonalds, is still dealing with fucking harassment and it's not right no matter how you attempt to justify it. Segmenting treatment based on arbitrary qualifiers is a slippery slope, where do we draw a line? I'm pretty sure that something along the lines of "be subjected to abusive treatment from teammates" wasn't in Martin's contract, so even if you don't morally agree, you have to legally agree that what happened is 100% wrong. I'm not on a soapbox or knee-jerking here, just calling bullshit on a post chock full of self-justification and jealousy. I mean based on your logic, women get beaten all around the world, does that make it acceptable to beat my wife too? How about if she was a millionaire because of me? Maybe she just didn't have the mentality to be my wife or was just a panzy? Yes, I'm using hyperbole to make a point, but the analogy fits.
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  13. rich1978

    rich1978 Veteran

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    See, sanctimonious... the fact i differentiated between a millionaire and a non-millionaire tells you nothing about my character actually, you should stop being so presumptuous, I'd wondered when i posted it if that comment would lead you to stooping to the 'everyman, man of the people standpoint' and you didn't disappoint. The point is merely that these guys are paid handsomely to do what they do and so putting up with some shit along the way should be cushioned by that fact. If Martin is savvy he will never again have to work a day in his life. That is a salient difference for someone 'flipping burgers' or having to make the team so that their match-bonus pays the rent and puts food in their children's mouths. I'm not telling you how I would treat others, or indeed how I do treat others, I'm not justifying Incognito, Pouncey or indeed Martin's behaviour, I'm just saying life isnt black or white, no matter how much you would like to believe it is.

    I mean seriously, you are laughably trying to equate my post to justifying wife-beating now and have even personalised it! Talk about a straw man argument! The amount of presumptions about me in your post is ludicrous. The list of aspersions cast against my character is as stupendous as it is ridiculous and baseless and does nothing but weaken your own point by playing the ad hominem card.

    I'm not justifying the situation at all, If you read my post you will see I believe its a mess and Miami's management are perhaps most to blame. What works for one, may not for another. i've been in locker rooms where there was hazing and I've been in some where there wasnt, such is life, both had their plus points and as i mentioned, right or wrong in its methods, hazing does build character and the teams i played in which had that sort of environment generally turned out to be much tighter knit than others. Of course, it isnt for everyone, nothing in life is black or white, it's up to miami to work out how best to mesh their players' personalities. simply put, a locker-room like Miami's is not as rare as the self-flagellating drama queens in the media would like to pretend, it happens in all countries, all sports and all industries, it's a non-story. Still it's simple trivia to distract the masses and allow people the opportunity to be smug and pious so its a win-win for the media and those who consume it.

    Incognito et al come across as dicks but since when was a jock being bovine newsworthy? You're naive if you think this is a one-off and has neither been thus since time immemorial nor will be long after you and I are gone as long as blokes still have testosterone coursing through their bodies and are compelled by their inate spirit of aggressive competition.

    Still, as you yourself demonstrated, this is an age that thrives on hyperbole and needs issues to be black and white with clear villains and heroes. So gobble it up, swallow it down and feel the warm glow of being self-righteous, just please don't do me the disservice to assume my contrarianism and objectivism casts me in with the villains too, you really know nothing about me.

    The crux is that you yourself, (when mentioning both our separate experiences of hazing) said people are different and react to things differently, so why are you then completely contradicting yourself and arguing from a position of absolutism claiming it is categorically wrong?
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2014
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  14. Warlock

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    I know all about the gray in between, it's what people who lack conviction use to justify their perspective. Abuse is abuse and hazing is hazing. When hazing becomes abusive, it's abuse. Hazing isn't necessarily wrong or bad, but it is when it's abusive, because abuse is wrong/bad. The only "gray area" here is what the individuals are capable of dealing with. What constitutes abusive is the same for everyone, it's just that some people are more capable of dealing with it. Abuse isn't right, regardless of how much someone is able to deal with... that's where you fail to understand my point. If that viewpoint makes me sanctimonious, then I guess I am. Then again, I'm not the one trying to justify abuse, I'm just calling a spade a spade.
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  15. rich1978

    rich1978 Veteran

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    Quite frankly, if you are saying the grey between absolutes is what people use to justify a lack of conviction thats a ridiculous standpoint. So everything in your world is black and white is it? guilty, not guilty? no extenuating cricumstances, no pragmatism, its all fluffy white clouds or fire and brimstone??

    Your view is sanctimonious because of your extremely self-righteous first sentence there or the fact you refuse to accept that there are other opinions to your own; that one man's abuse is another's banter, that there is more than one way to skin a cat and arrive at the same destination, that in an alpha male locker room there are different methods and different rules apply. Like the guy who posted the tweet from some ex-pro saying they read the report and 'that's not what a locker room is'. wrong, that may not have been what HIS locker room was but that's not the same as what he is saying. don't presume, dont suffer the sin of assuming your own viewpoint is naturally superior to another's
    You've even contradicted your position of absolutes in that post by admitting it's down to the individual's subjective perception of abuse and then admitting hazing isnt necessarily wrong or bad? so is this grey area your lack of conviction, because your confusion on the matter is confusing me now, sounds awfully like you are agreeing with me. Hazing without abuse? novel! (see link)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazing

    What you are dead right about is the fact that some can deal with it, some can't. that's the bottom line here, thats all that matters. Martin couldn't deal with it and shit fell apart. Miami should have done their homework if they knew the established vets on their O-line ran their ship this way.

    Look, my point is that hazing ain't pretty and it's not my preferred form of team building but it aint the devil either. I'm open minded enough to see how it works and how it appeals to certain personalities. Incognito played the part with aplomb, perhaps a little too well and seemingly tried to reach out to Martin but Martin seemed to have a few issues dating back to high school and before and suffered a pattern of social maladjustment which meant he couldn't hack it. In an ultra competitive and super aggressive arena like the tranches of an NFL team, its not unreasonable to suggest that mental stoicism is a requisite trait so the 'toughening up' was valid.

    At the end of the day, what really happened here? nobody died, nobody did anything that hasn't happened a million times before and won't happen a million times again. a lot of it was unsavoury, sure but not especially out of the ordinary in this day and age. It's really a storm in a teacup. trade martin to the 49ers, let Beavis Incognito and Butthead Pouncey run their little O-Line frathouse and lets all start furiously worrying if someone dare say anything to Michael Sam instead, there's far more potential for getting offended on someone else's behalf on a hot button topic like that, with any luck we can shoehorn in Obamacare, Islam and creationism in there too, then the internet can explode in a fury of faux rage one upmanship.

    :4_2_204v[1]:
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  16. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    Rich, if i could give you 1000x likes I would. The Hazing thing is a valid point, I was actually in a national fraternity that outlawed hazing; and it actually hurt the recruiting process, guys looking to join had an idea in their mind of what fraternity life is/was and that's what they were looking for. Pouncey/Richie and anyone else who participated in this jumped the shark w/what they were doing, but as pointed out no one died, no one was hurt. Martin went to Stanford, he should have been able to handle the pressure of two guys talking shit and leaving messages; and by all accounts for awhile he did, which is why the investigation called the outcome confusing b/c of the complex bipolar relationship of Martin and Incognito. In some instances there are texts that even show Martin talking shit back to Incognito.

    Sam is going to get Hazed, he's going to get some serious shit, even more then Te'O did(and he did get serious shit). BUT if, like Te'O show he can handle it, all that shit will stop. Problem w/Martin is that he couldn't handle the it, and worse he couldn't play; which is why all of this started to begin with; which is why all the more reason why I DON'T want him on the team.

    .
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  17. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    JABF, you would think that, but go back a few years to Kreutz, there might not have been the verbal bs, but here is a guy that ran the locker room like a tyrant to the point of breaking a fellow players jaw b/c; does that sound like the locker room Lovie would have? Reality is that the coaches and even higher up are going to let 52 alpha males deal with the day in day out stuff that happens in the locker room, they know they are going to fight(although inj's are far more extreme) and they know these guys are going to talk in ways that would not be alright in a business world or the outside world; b/c that's what locker rooms do. In between all the "you cannot have this..." BS on the radio over the last week or so, you have heard multiple exNFL players saying that the locker room is not for the weak of heart, that what is said there is NSFW in any other instance. Reality is the workers dicate the social norms and culture, the only way management can truly effect it is by hiring the people that fit the culture they want to build, and get rid of the ones they don't. Rich makes a valid point that each locker room is going to be different. Think something like this would happen on the Yankee's or the Pat's? Nope b/c they are a business first, second, third culture and have key players that have bought into that culture and have developed it top to bottom. Not every team is going to function like that, nor can it b/c not every player can thrive like that.
  18. JustAnotherBearsFan99

    JustAnotherBearsFan99 Coordinator SuperFan DBS Writer

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    Ric those are good points, and in fact I did think about the Kreutz thing. But after I thought about it, I realized that the fight that time was really a very different situation. Both men were seasoned veterans - not a veteran systematically bullying a rookie. Big difference there IMHO. I have no problem with fights between two guys (in this case it was after they had been drinking) that happen in the heat of a situation. That is like you are pointing out......a thing between two alph males. It's going to happen. And after the Kreutz/Miller thing, they were fine together. The thing down in Miami seems like a daily dysfunctional locker room.

    On a positive note, I do like how we have high character guys in the mix in our own locker room. Pretty cool when you see things like Peanut Tillman representing OUR team as the NFL Man of the Year for his high character. Over the last year I've read countless articles about Bears players helping people in many different ways - even the rookies getting involved in community work. A number of our players are strong Christian family men. I like that, and I have pointed that out to my own children - that men can be strong physically, mentally AND spiritually. The total package. The Bears seem to have a number of these kind of men. They represent our team very well.

    I know that all teams are a bit different in how high or low they are character-wise. We have certainly had our own nut-cases over the years too, but they seem to be sent packing and a STRONG message sent to the players here that scumbags won't be tolerated here. We clean our own dirty laundry. In Miami it took the NFL stepping in - and a special investigator appointed - to clean up the mess and dysfunction there.

    Ric, I see many of your points and don't disagree with many of them. Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle of how you and I see this thing. In fact that is probably the case. :)
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2014
  19. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    JABF, you think Kruetz was only a cock to other seasoned vets, the fight was just the one that got out. Again he ran that locker room w/an iron fist, from rookie to vet to the point that, by some reports, Cutler could not be the leader he wanted to be.

    That's the thing, this situation is not black or white, it's not like Richie and the others day 1 went full bore, I'm gonna rape your sister and piss in your mouth halfbreed. All of this escalated; to unacceptable levels, BUT if Martin handled it the way it needed to be; or his play on the field dicated more repsect from his team, none of this happens. And people that played in the NFL an people that were in nfl locker rooms have all said that this is not a black and white issue.

    At the end of the day, I want neither on the team; Martin imo is just another Webb, he's not mentally capable of being the monster that the NFL needs their linemen to be, even though he has the physical tools to do it. I don't want Richie on the team b/c he's a 1st class jag-bag.
  20. butkus3595

    butkus3595 Pro-Bowler

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    Ahhhn fraternities....I never understood those either. Let me treat you like shit and then call you my brother. Pointless. As I said in all the football locker rooms I've ever been I've never encountered anything like this. In all the interactions I've had with nfl players in locker room like setting a I've never encountered this. All the nfl players I've talked to have said this went beyond anything they ever dealt with. Says all I need to know.

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