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Discussion in 'Chicago Bears' started by JustAnotherBearsFan99, Feb 14, 2014.
I don't need a PhD to read ever other sentence from you blaming Martin....
Just got done working with a group of nfl o and d lineman....not one of them said they were gonna run train on any of their sisters. Not one of them came anywhere close to any of the shit that is apparently normal banter between nfl players or apparently men in general. They must all be soft pansies eh?!
Geez US Benji, set up a straw man much!
No one anywhere on here or anywhere in this entire thread has said ANYTHING about ANY OF THIS being RIGHT! NOTHING about this whole episode is "RIGHT", least of all where this thread has gone. We may have disagreements on this issue, but it has nothing to do with the Bears. The original question was innocent and simple enough, yet this thread has digressed into a "rip" fest on each other. All the more reason to keep each of these players as far away from Halas Hall as possible. None of them are worth it.
There's a huge difference between "hazing" and "harassment."
Forced to carry vet's bags to the bus, standing up and singing your alma mater's fight song in meetings? Hazing.
Saying you want to run a train and rape someone's sister? Not hazing.
I wish I had never started this thread. We all have different opinions that span a wide range & everyone has strong feelings on the situation. I frankly didn't realize it was such a hot topic. If I could delete the thread I would. My bad. Sorry :-(
Don't apologize jabf...it was a good question.
Thanks, but seriously I "get it" now that folks are pretty passionate one way or the other on the guy. I'm a big one on picking up a player cheap in some of these second chance situations. I don't advocate doing this with just anyone, but this guy seems pretty harmless if treated right. I just thought this guy might be one worth taking a small chance on. Sign him cheap, and if he worked out great, but if not then just cut the guy.
It seemed like a good "low risk and high reward" type of situation.
We've talked about some of these over the years.....heck Brandon Marshall was kindof like this. We tossed two 3rd round picks to Miami and got a great player who's turned his life around. Instead of being a cancer, B.Marsh is a GOOD locker room influence now. Now I wasn't thinking we give ANYTHING much for the guy. Hey, I'm naive. I thought perhaps we could sign the guy for a song-and-a-dance and give it a try. The best coaches do this all the time. Belechik has made a stinking living doing these kind of things...some paid off.....some didn't. But he's done well overall in some of these cases. Other solid coaches have too.
I'm a big one on redemption and 2nd chances too. I've been given second chances in my life and it paid off. I did better. And I have been fiercely loyal to those to gave me a second chance in life. Sometimes this works out in the sports world too.
But hey. I didn't mean to start a huge pissing match here. I had no clue :-(
I don't think anyone said that you have to talk like that to be tough.
Honestly, to me, it just is a good topic. Debate/arguments are going to arise from that sort of topic. I can talk shit back and forth all day on here and still not think less of someone for having a different opinion. If anything you deserve kudos for creating such dialogue. It's cool to see others opinions from all walks of life. *shrug*
Its not a pissing match, it is just a controversial topic. Just because a thread doesn't evolve in a way you intended, does not mean you were wrong to post it.
no straw man, just going off the idea of blaming the victim that was brought up before my post. No in anyway saying the bullying Incognito did was equal to rape
Come on buddy, thats a very tenuous and pretty distasteful comparison. Rape is an absolutely abhorrent crime, its a cowardly brutal and extremely degrading and damaging act by a pathetic individual. I know, I had a close friend at uni who was raped when she was back home and it ruined her, i spent two years as a shoulder to cry on trying to coax her back out of her shell and trust the world again. Equating a bit of banter (two-way no less) and some meatheat jock bullshit with that is nonsense. You're clearly an intelligent poster, you're better than that post.
Dont apologise, there are strong opinions on this one but they have been well put from both sides and the debate has been intelligent and interesting. I respect everyone's prerogative to have an opinion and its threads like this where people get passionat ethat make the board what it is.
it would be dull if everyone agreed with each other all day. :)
except it's not every other sentence, so you need to not only tone down the mental eval, you need to hone up on the reading skills. Reality is Martin, even was PART of the problem; I have yet to assign any amount of blame to anyone.
Well lets get it back on the JABF topic.
Reality is that Martin wasn't that good of a OT, ya he started a bunch of games, so did Webb didn't make Webb a good OT. I think there is, regardless of what and how it was handled, serious questions by the Dolphins about his toughness and his physicalness on the field that created the very situation that derailed the OP's point. IF the Dolphins were correct and Martin is not physical enough, then no he's not worth a roster spot.
I see your point but i guess it just depends what neighbourhood you grew up in! I grew up in a very rough part of South London (yeah we do have them, its not all tea and crumpets!) ;) and there were a lot of 'gangs' etc or lets say 'groups' of kids (to get away from the very negative connotations) then I played various sports at various levels, some in the Uk, some in the US, some in Asia. Some in 'nice' neighbourhoods, some in pretty dire areas. I think the bottom line is that any group that relies on its cohesiveness and team work ethic to perform generally tries to cultivate a unity through different methods. Now if you are down the local rugby club that might be downing ten pints, getting naked and being forced to do some pretty stupid/obscene shit. If you are in a rough situation it might be worse than that, if you are lucky and in a well drilled or monitored situation like the military (at least should be) then it might not be as bad. Its an 'initiation', thats the word that shoudl be used here
'hazing' or 'bullying' are hot topics because they come with extra baggage, they come with a lot of very negative and tragic stories, of broken childhoods and school shootings, of repressed emotions and years of counselling. we need to be careful what labels we assign to this instance. the facts seem to point to a socially maladjusted individual (Martin) who stepped into an aggressive alpha male environment that was a little out of control and although others thrived in this method of bonding, Miami should have kept a lid on it and perhaps had better due dilligence about drafting martin and also about mentoring him and helping his development. Incognito and pouncey are just meatheads doing what they probably had done to them and probably dont know any better. Martin seems to have revelled in it as well at times, both enjoying the cameraderie and leaning on incognito when he needed someone to confide in, (who to his credit, reciprocated with support) but also giving out abuse as well to both RI and to others who he himself 'hazed'. I'm not justifying RI, i dont think anyone is, only stating that this kind of practice is hardly uncommon in similar situations and as anachronistic and bovine as you might think it is (which is a fair comment in the 21st century) it goes on and a lot of people buy into it and find it a positive and a real bonding experience. The bottom line is that what works for one may not for another but equally neither are right to say their way is the only way. Miami failed Martin more than Incognito et al did in my book.
You saw my later post. You liked it.
Wasn't comparing. There is no comparison between the two. I never compared them. Just brought out the blaming the victim card, brought it to the extreme.
Unfortunately, there are some blaming Martin for him, and he is the victim of bullying.
I am sorry for your friend, I have someone close to me who also was raped. A few people actually, and most of them were blamed, even though they were the victim of the attack.
JABF - excellent topic of conversation. It's good to have this kind of exchange. Awareness is a good thing. Hell, I can't even recall if I wrote on this topic or not, but I've gotten a lot out of the conversations and opinions.
I did see your later post and I for some reason was unable to edit mine, so I apologise. One of those 'reply before you finish the thread moments' I'm afraid! (normally a sign of a good thread/debate though)
I know what you mean and it is of course completely wrong to blame a rape victim, I just found the analogy distasteful and also dont see Martin as quite so blameless as the media likes to make out. Anyway, lets leave the rape thign out of this conversation, it doesnt really fit
I may not agree with some of the things you say (you seem a bit more of a liberal than me - im fiscally conservative, socially liberal) but you're clearly a smart guy, just seemed out of keeping with your posts, so i picked it up.
I may only have 50 posts on here but I've been around since way back in the dabearz (?) days around ten years+ back and lost all my post count a few times along the way. I read the forum daily though and like the mix we have going here. debates like this should always be encouraged and we're all pals at the end of the day, so no hard feelings to anyone i might have pissed off on here! (warlock, benj etc)
Alls good my friend, and I remember you back from the DBZ days for sure!
No hard feelings, and I guarantee you did not piss me off :)