If we had an opportunity to sign OT Jonathan Martin cheap, should we do that?

Discussion in 'Chicago Bears' started by JustAnotherBearsFan99, Feb 14, 2014.

  1. Warlock

    Warlock Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2013
    Messages:
    160
    Likes Received:
    152
    Ratings:
    +193 / 1 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    119ß
    So harassing someone to the point of a mental health breakdown is nothing similar to raping someone? Rape is just the physical manifestation of the same act. Both do tons of emotional and psychological damage to the victims. Any Psychologist will tell you that rape isn't about the sexual act, it's about having the power over another individual. I would even go as far to say that the continual nature in most bullying/harassment cases is worse than a one-off rape... having experienced both myself, I can tell you that the bullying/harassment fucked me up far worse than being molested as a child. Especially when the bullying/harassment is something that you can't reasonably seem to be able to escape from (i.e. workplace harassment that spills into your social life). I know bullying/harassment is wrong from empirical knowledge on the subject... it has nothing to do with being tough or not, no one deserves to be treated that way... I'm as tough as they come too, mostly because I have be able to not only deal with a fucked up life, but turn it into a relatively normal one despite all the baggage that I'm forced to carry. You see, I didn't ask to be molested or bullied/harassed... self-justifying assholes made those decisions for me... I got treated poorly in life, it doesn't give me the right to treat others in a similar fashion, that's what you ignorant bastards don't seem to understand. It's a fucking choice that we all make in how we treat others and just because something was done to you or happens regularly doesn't make it fucking right. It just means that you're the panzy who is unable to transcend the bullshit and make your own decisions.
  2. butkus3595

    butkus3595 Pro-Bowler

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2013
    Messages:
    1,627
    Likes Received:
    756
    Ratings:
    +936 / 1 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    783ß
    Back to the original point...I would take a flyer on Martin. From all accounts except the dysfunctional and unsuccessful Miami Dolphins, Martin is mentally tough, physical on the field, and has a great work ethic. I agree with Ric in that he probably isn't a left tackle in the league. If you look at his scouting report it said he excelled at run blocking, calling him a ROAD GRADER however his pass blocking he struggled with at times. He seems more suited for guard to me. I think this would help our team because then we could kick slausen into center. Either way, unlike Webb, who Ric loves to compare Martin to for some unbeknown reason, Martin was one of the most highly rated lineman coming out of college...he'll get a job again and I would bet be successful.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. 4dabers

    4dabers Veteran DBS Writer

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2013
    Messages:
    692
    Likes Received:
    607
    Ratings:
    +748 / 0 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    92ß
    So now some of us are ignorant bastards. Sorry you had such a rough life dude, I think most of us have a story, some are fine sharing, others are not, but we would all do well to actually read the words of what others say without inputing your your own story into assumptions of what you think they mean. NO ONE has said this thing was RIGHT in any way. Yet now we have compared this whole thing to the trauma of rape.

    Man, sometimes I think we are doomed because of our inability to communicate, or maybe it's our inability to actually hear/read what the other person is saying.
    • Like Like x 2
  4. rich1978

    rich1978 Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2009
    Messages:
    216
    Likes Received:
    195
    Ratings:
    +226 / 0 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    139ß

    I was gonna reply but i wouldnt be able to better that post 4db

    warlock - sorry to hear about your past, i think you are totally misunderstanding what i'm saying but im not gonna get any sort of enjoyment out of debating this further on here with you and dredging up old memories for you, so I'm gonna leave it at that. Keep fighting and bear down brother.
  5. Warlock

    Warlock Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2013
    Messages:
    160
    Likes Received:
    152
    Ratings:
    +193 / 1 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    119ß
    I read quite well, tyvm. Ignorance is more the dooming mechanic in this world. We, as people, tend to wrap ourselves up in delusions that make us feel better about our choices (i.e. ignoring things or twisting them to suit ourselves, aka justifying, as evidenced in this thread by some). Abuse is abuse and any reasonable person will agree that abusing someone is bad and/or wrong, regardless of the circumstances. So in order to become ignorant of this simple truth, people justify (i.e. make exceptions). For example, telling someone that I'm going to run a train on their loved one, is some how now OK because I'm in a lockerroom. Or maybe it's now OK, because I'm a big dude and can stand up for myself. The problem is that circumstances do not change the fact that someone treated another human being this way and no amount of justification is going to change this simple truth. It takes far more strength (of mind and character) to challenge the status quo than follow blindly in the mob. The mob offers safety and justification for actions that we as people know are inherently wrong. When you make exceptions of concious and morality, well... where does it end? Currently, the world is so fucked up because of this selective morality. I mean, maybe if more people stood up and fought the good fight rather than accepting the status quo, we wouldn't be arguing about "gray areas" in a situation where one human being was treated in an abusive manner and some people wouldn't be trying to justify it.

    As for assumptions... I didn't exactly quote you did I, thus the one making assumptions here is you... you're assuming that my post was directed at you or maybe you're trying to justify your point of view because my statements challenge your perspective. You see friend, there's this thing in language called context and it helps one interpret statements made. The context of my statement relate to the post that I quoted, when you read into my statement in a manner that wasn't intended, the confusion is your own fault... because you chose to ignore the rules of language. So please, continue to justify your belief that I'm illiterate, since I guess that will in some manner make it easier for you to sleep peacefully at night.
    • Like Like x 1
  6. short faced bear

    short faced bear Assistant Head Coach DBS Writer

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    Messages:
    10,505
    Likes Received:
    1,212
    Ratings:
    +1,291 / 0 / -2
    ßearz ßuckz:
    257ß
    When it's all said and done we do not know the context and intent which all this harassment/bullying/hazing/mental "rape" is going on as we are not there. With all the shades of gray which this incident can or could take place you could even extrapolate this into gas-lighting. The interpretation that each person is looking through sees a different perspective/dimension. All from what a stout person would take to what a regular player would take, to the average Joe, then to what an abused person would take. Solutions, like the problem itself are fluid and not fixed.

    In the end it perhaps boils down to how to survive the situation. The more diverse the coping mechanisms the more different the opinions. However, two constants remain: Incognito is a douchebag and so is the mgmt. in Miami.

    -end story
  7. Wolfman

    Wolfman Assistant Head Coach

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    14,552
    Likes Received:
    1,668
    Ratings:
    +1,867 / 10 / -4
    ßearz ßuckz:
    178ß
    Part of the problem because he was playing well enough...apparently poor job performance justifies harassment and abuse...

    Part of the problem because he wasn't mental tough enough to put up with Incognito' s shit, even though he tried too, probably thinking/hoping it would eventually stop....it didn't....

    Part of the problem because he didn't punch Incognito in the nose...Martin is big and strong; of course he should have used violence to solve his problems...

    Part of the problem because he didn't run to management with his problem and rat Incognito out...which was just as culturally unacceptable as quitting the team...

    Part of the problem because he didn't just shut up and take it...
  8. JustAnotherBearsFan99

    JustAnotherBearsFan99 Assistant Head Coach SuperFan DBS Writer

    Joined:
    May 21, 2012
    Messages:
    10,031
    Likes Received:
    2,664
    Ratings:
    +3,083 / 4 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    1,819ß
    Every year there's an opportunity for teams to pick up a player "on the cheap" who has some kind of baggage issues. Every player situation is different. It just seems like teams try to discern if it's worth taking a shot on a player in a (hopefully) low-risk, high-reward opportunity.

    Many of the better coaches have the ability to do this, without any serious consequences. If the player doesn't turn out to be worth a permanent roster spot they just cut him. It's looking like the 49ers and the Colts are interested in Martin. Only time will tell if he turns out to be a top-tier OL, but if he doesn't pan out they'll just move on from the guy.

    If he does pan out to be a solid LT in the NFL, then they will have a OL version of what we did with Brandon Marshall. B.Marsh was supposed to be a "cancer" for any team. Emery didn't buy into that and brought him here on the cheap. It worked out pretty good for us, and not so well for stupid Miami. Before folks jump on me, I'll clarify that B.Marsh isn't Martin. My only point is that smart teams sometimes kick the tires on a player with baggage issues - and it pays off bigtime.

    To me, it's all about "value" in how teams spend that cap money. All NFL teams are playing now with the same amount of money for players. It's all about how much talent they can acquire with a finite amount of cap money. Hitting home runs on the cheap is just one of many ways the better teams do this. Granted, there are many factors that go into building a championship team, and not just hitting on one long shot player. But you notice that the teams that have sustained success in the NFL are the ones that take care of "the little" opportunities because they can add up to success.
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2014
    • Like Like x 1
  9. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2006
    Messages:
    22,648
    Likes Received:
    3,054
    Ratings:
    +3,690 / 10 / -8
    ßearz ßuckz:
    1,867ß
    BMarsh was a risk b/c of his off the field issues which could have led to suspensions, not so much his problems dealing w/other teammates(cosidering Cutler is here).

    Richie Incognito will be cheap also, and never was known for trouble until now, w/just a few off field issues that never went to court, and he's more proven, why not get him? Why b/c he's a world class D-Bag.

    Martin QUIT on his team b/c he was being picked on for two years, after he partook in the picking on, and w/out going to managment to try and get it to stop. He played 1 year, 16 games, and nothing I'm finding said he lit up the game.

    Don't want or have need for either of these guys anywhere near the Bears.
  10. Wolfman

    Wolfman Assistant Head Coach

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    14,552
    Likes Received:
    1,668
    Ratings:
    +1,867 / 10 / -4
    ßearz ßuckz:
    178ß
    Short memory...Marshall acted like a spoiled child on his way out of Denver..."locker room cancer" was certainly a label attached to him by many at the time...
  11. butkus3595

    butkus3595 Pro-Bowler

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2013
    Messages:
    1,627
    Likes Received:
    756
    Ratings:
    +936 / 1 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    783ß
    Has never been known for trouble???!!!! LMAO :rofl:!!! Are you serious Ric?

    I wouldn't want Incognito because he's older...and he's a jag off who's a cancer to a locker room. This guy was suspended twice at Nebraska....TWICE, and finally sent packing! Suspended and sent packing by a coach who let a guy play who was awaiting trial for attempted murder, and also let a d-lineman play who was arrested eight times, convicted four times, and left the heartland accused of multiple sexual assaults(That guy was inducted into the Nebraska hall of fame in 06 by the way!)!!! What did HE do that was so bad the coach sent HIM packing and not those other guys? He lasted all of a week in Oregon before getting sent packing from there. He's a guy who got in a confrontation with his head coach in St. Louis, and was cut after committing 38 penalties in 44 games. Earlier in the year he knocked out a security guard at the Fontain Bleu in Miami(which you won't here about because the Dolphins got the hotel to bury the tape). He's an admitted drug user...it just goes on and on with this guy. I wouldn't want him anywhere near my locker room if I wanted a team that was going to win.
  12. JustAnotherBearsFan99

    JustAnotherBearsFan99 Assistant Head Coach SuperFan DBS Writer

    Joined:
    May 21, 2012
    Messages:
    10,031
    Likes Received:
    2,664
    Ratings:
    +3,083 / 4 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    1,819ß
    Martin is a young guy who was made a starter day-1. Kindof like we did with Kyle Long and Jordan Mills. This season, obviously, it all fell apart and he didn't finish the season. It sounds like Martin can play right or left tackle at a starter level now, but has a ways to go to improve. Our youngsters do too.

    Do you kick the tires on a guy like this in a low-risk, high-reward situation? I'd have no problem with that if we could do it on the cheap. Regarding the comparison with J'Marcus Webb, there is a difference. Webb never had the pedigree that Martin has. Webb came from having failed at a top program. He left Texas and went to tiny Navarro College and bounced to West Texas A&M. Obviously the guy isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer either. Martin on the other hand is bright and had a rock solid career at Stanford as a LT. I'm not saying this makes Martin a solid NFL left tackle, but again, it makes me think a smart team will "kick the tires" on the kid to see if there may be something worth having. If not. Cut him.

    But if he DOES have talent, they you've brought in a solid LT that can help your team for several years to come. Maybe I'm missing something here, but isn't this what solid teams do? Don't they explore opportunities like this when an opportunity drops into their lap? And this isn't just the Martin thing. Anytime a player looks like he's worth kicking the tires on, in a value situation, I have no problem with Emery weighing the positives vs negatives and taking some calculated risks to make the team better.
    • Like Like x 2
  13. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2006
    Messages:
    22,648
    Likes Received:
    3,054
    Ratings:
    +3,690 / 10 / -8
    ßearz ßuckz:
    1,867ß
    "...w/cutler here..." the lib reading comprehension is way down in this thread.


    I see no reward in either of them that's the point. Webb was a starter for what 2 years? doesn't make him anygood. Their OL was brutal and he was part of that.
  14. 4dabers

    4dabers Veteran DBS Writer

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2013
    Messages:
    692
    Likes Received:
    607
    Ratings:
    +748 / 0 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    92ß
    Lets address this in the two parts that it was written. Your first paragraph is very well written and I concur with almost everything you say in it. I adamantly agree with your comments regarding selective conscience and morality, and I will add the utter disregard for simple public decorum. I fervently agree with your discussion about going along with the mob mentality and the degradation of our social morality that results from it. Not only do I agree with those opinions, but I live my life in that fashion and I raise my kids with the same awareness. I could site example after example of standing up for the very principles you espouse, putting my personal and professional reputation at risk, but that would be lengthy, boring, and ultimately pointless. With that said, you should know that you have a kindred spirit here.

    Now on to the second paragraph. I don't give a rats ass if you directed your comments at me or not. In fact, I would be far less critical if I thought you were just talking to me, but since I am quite opposed to the whole mob mentality that perhaps we share as a personal attribute, I get a little bent when the ideas and opinions of a small group of people are shouted down and demonized by the larger group. For instance, Ric has shared an opinion on this topic that is similar to mine, yet he has had words put in his mouth throughout this entire thread for the sake of diminishing his ACTUAL points to make the challengers points appear stronger. I find it ironic that you challenge my comprehension of "context" when you yourself (among others) have been obfuscating the context of alternate opinions throughout this whole thread, and then have the gall to suggest that I am confused about the rules of language. You continue to suggest that I believe you're illiterate when I did not say anything of the kind, yet YOU choose to lecture ME about assumptions. I merely stated that "...sometimes I think we are doomed because of our inability to communicate, or maybe it's our inability to actually hear/read what the other person is saying." I stand by that, because YOU attacked people that had a different opinion as "ignorant bastards". Since your opinion is in the majority in this thread, are you not going against the very principles of the mob rule mentality that you apply to yourself in the first paragraph. No, you're not illiterate at all, you just don't want to hear the opinions of others and when you do, you resort to disparaging personal attacks. Perhaps you prefer to attack with straw man arguments, red herrings or other logical fallacies to attempt to prove your points, but then it turns into a disingenuous debate.

    In conclusion, let me just say again, I HAVE SEEN NO ONE IN THIS THREAD TRY TO JUSTIFY THE ACTIONS OF INCOGNITO, NOR SUGGEST THAT THOSE ACTIONS WERE ANYTHING CLOSE TO "RIGHT". I HAVE SEEN NO ONE TRY TO EXCUSE HIS ACTIONS WHATSOEVER. Yet I have seen many posts that attack the few opinions expressed that perhaps Martin was not completely blameless in this fiasco either, but try to assign the "Richie did nothing wrong" to those posts. So Warlock, before begin another condescending and derogatory attack on others on this board or in this thread, how about you try an open your mind to the breadth that you claim it is; perhaps the level of assumption that you appear to be applying to others could possibly be found in the mirror.

    Once last damn thing. I know we all strive to live in Shangri-La, and that's not a bad thing to strive for, but it doesn't exist. Does that mean we quit trying to find it? No, but the human condition of imperfection will never allow it. If an NFL player is pushed out for "bullying", then I can name hundreds of others that have done far worse that are "given a second chance". I'm all for banning Incognito for life, I'm just against the hypocrisy of doing that, yet allowing convicts back in the game, or players like Rothlisberger to cover up his actions. If you are going to clean up the league, then damn it, clean it up. I'm all for it.
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Wolfman

    Wolfman Assistant Head Coach

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    14,552
    Likes Received:
    1,668
    Ratings:
    +1,867 / 10 / -4
    ßearz ßuckz:
    178ß
    So Cutler being here was a guaranteed lock that BMarsall would behave himself...that we all haven't been pleasantly shocked and relieved that BMarshall hasn't been locker room cancer, but actually proven to be a positive role model since coming to the Bears? BMashall was a locker room risk...and it's worked out...but working out didn't make him any less risky....didn't rewrite history...
  16. Wolfman

    Wolfman Assistant Head Coach

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    14,552
    Likes Received:
    1,668
    Ratings:
    +1,867 / 10 / -4
    ßearz ßuckz:
    178ß
    You mean the panzy that ratted out Incognito?

    that's a load of crap. Every workplace I have been in, every group of guys I have hung around w/have been very off color in it's nature and that includes women that are in the same department. This Idea that PC has taken hold in the real world is a load.

    stop , he was hardly bullied he was teased and in no harsher of a way then most men tease their closest friends.

    HE WAS NOT BULLIED, the fact that the PC world is trying to equate this as bullying is laughable at best

    And this is not a typical job we are talking about, this is a workforce that s largely backing the "bully" and not just in their locker room, but in multiple locker rooms.



    Those are a few comments are just from the 1st page of this thread....some people have indeed excused his actions...
    • Like Like x 1
  17. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2006
    Messages:
    22,648
    Likes Received:
    3,054
    Ratings:
    +3,690 / 10 / -8
    ßearz ßuckz:
    1,867ß
    yes Cutler being here was a guaranteed lock BMarsh, in the locker room would be okay. He'd never acted out of place when Cutler was on his team.
  18. Wolfman

    Wolfman Assistant Head Coach

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    14,552
    Likes Received:
    1,668
    Ratings:
    +1,867 / 10 / -4
    ßearz ßuckz:
    178ß
    Can't fight that stunning logic...
    • Like Like x 1
  19. butkus3595

    butkus3595 Pro-Bowler

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2013
    Messages:
    1,627
    Likes Received:
    756
    Ratings:
    +936 / 1 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    783ß
    Marshall was never a locker room problem...he has several off the field problems...whether Cutler was on his team or not, which lead to him being suspended by the league. I think him getting his mental issues solved has more to do with him now than who's on his team and who's not.
  20. Henry Burris

    Henry Burris Head Coach

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2007
    Messages:
    19,712
    Likes Received:
    2,388
    Ratings:
    +2,634 / 8 / -10
    ßearz ßuckz:
    691ß
    Never mind the fact that Brandon Marshall was on proper medication for bipolar disorder when he came to Chicago, and subsequently hasn't had any sort of trouble; never mind the fact that he was arrested multiple times as a teammate of Cutler's in Denver and also forget the phrase "false cause"
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page