Interesting Observation on the Two Super Bowl QBs.

Discussion in 'Chicago Bears' started by soulman, Nov 19, 2013.

  1. soulman

    soulman Pro-Bowler SuperFan DBS Writer

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    Every time I see a thread or an article suggesting the Bears move on from Cutler BEFORE they're certain they have his replacement I come across articles like this one. Why is it for some the grass is always greener in someone else's yard and another teams QB is always better than yours? At what point do some Bears fans finally accept that while Cutler is far from perfect he's still a top ten franchise QB who wouldn't be a free agent for much more than a day if we released him. Don't you guys think we should at least get a draft pick or two for him so we can take a gamble on drafting a better one as opposed to making him a free agent and get nothing? It cost us enough to get him.

    We already know how well Joe Flacco is doing this year after that big contract he signed. In fact we all got to watch him on Sunday throw a pick 6 and fail once again to win a tight game while he and the Ravens fall to 4-6 this year and potentially out of playoff contention. Funny, they're playing without their future HOF MLB too. (I wonder if that's had an effect on them too) So how come I haven't seen any "would you rather have Cutler or Flacco" threads recently amigos? There were a few last February. So if Joe Flacco won a Super Bowl I'm not listening to anyone tell me Jay Cutler can't.

    QBs have good years and good games and they have bad ones and while you can't win in today's NFL without a good one many of the ones who've been drafted recently aren't doing all that well. So there's no magic in the draft either. Even in a year with several good prospects few are the next Andrew Luck who can walk in and win almost immediately. Far more of them struggle for a year or two before their teams know what they have and a few even turn out to be Christian Ponder who looks like the next Rex Grossman only this time it's the Vikes who drafted a failed 1st rounder. Oh, and here's how well the other Super Bowl QB is doing this year. So maybe we should just stick with what we've got. A bird in the hand and all that ya' know.

    Shutdown Corner
    NFL by the numbers – 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick has been the NFL’s worst passer since Week 2


    154 – Passing yards per game by San Francisco’s Colin Kaepernick since Week 2, the NFL’s lowest average among qualified quarterbacks, according to ESPN Stats & Info.


    Of course we could trade Cutler for a 1st round pick but what happens if he turns out like this guy.

    20 – Turnovers committed by New York Jets rookie cornerback Geno Smith (16 interceptions and four fumbles lost). Over Smith’s past four games, four of his six interceptions have been returned for touchdowns.


    Or he becomes a backup like this guy.

    1 – Touchdown pass thrown by Green Bay Packers quarterback Scott Tolzien in his past two starts. By no coincidence, Green Bay was defeated in both games.


    Just sayin'. :p
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  2. JustAnotherBearsFan99

    JustAnotherBearsFan99 Coordinator SuperFan DBS Writer

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    In the end, I'm just going to trust Trestman and Emery on the QB thing. If they believe Jay is the guy, then fine. If they don't believe he's the best option for the Bears, then I'm fine with that too. I suspect they'll keep Jay. I'd like to see them keep McCown too. He's a good insurance policy for when Jay is injured and misses games.
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  3. tbear1

    tbear1 Veteran

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    How did you determine this? Any supporting data?

    I hope we see Jay back next year. He should certainly be paid what he is worth, but that doesn't mean we should over-pay like Baltimore did. Flacco is not an elit e QB although he is being paid as one. I trust that Emery will have the team's interest in mind when negotiating his contract. I don't know who is representing Jay, but hopefully they are better than Urlacher's agent.
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  4. soulman

    soulman Pro-Bowler SuperFan DBS Writer

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    You can go research if you care to but I don't have to. I can see what the guy is capable of when he's playing to his full potential and I saw it in Denver for a couple of years before he ever became a Bear. I've probably seen Jay Cutler play more NFL games than 99% of Bears fans have and he has the skills of a top ten QB and the ability to win championships. He's finally getting the support from his team, his coaches, and the front office he's needed and his performance this year before he was hurt was better than any other year in his career including his second year in Denver when he wen to the Pro Bowl.

    Denver drafted him to become the next John Elway because he possessed most of the same attributes as Elway. Size, arm, mobility, an ability to make plays outside the pocket and to make throws few QBs have ever been able to make. If Pat Bowlen had never fired Mike Shanhan then Jay Cutler would still be in Denver and Manning would be playing somewhere else. It cost us a bit to get him but we were lucky we did and all because McDipshit wanted Kyle Orton. Imagine that??? Cutler is a gunslinger type QB like Elway and like Favre who needed to be reined in a bit and put in a more stable offense and Trestman has done that. Elway never won a SB either until he was in his mid 30s and Favre's best years came after he turned 30 as well. Jay is just getting there and just now maturing the way gunslingers need to in order to win championships. He's not a Manning or Brady style guy and no one should expect that. He's gonna make some bad throws but he's also gonna follow them up with plays the will make jaws drop. He already has just not often enough.

    Jay Cutler won't get a deal like the Ravens gave Flacco or the Saints gave Brees and frankly I don't believe he expects to but I've covered my thoughts on that in another post so no sense repeating them. I never said we should over pay him. All I've ever said is that he should be paid like the top ten QB he is not the best of the top ten. If the Bears make a fair offer I believe they'll agree pretty quickly because he's a whole lot more about winning a championship now than he is about being the highest paid QB in the NFL. He won't be and he won't expect to be.
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  5. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    What this article shows is that overpaying a qb(flacco/romo) who isn't worth that money, therefore losing out on key pieces elsewhere is exactly why you don't overpay a qb that has fundamental flaws in his game(turn over prone, low comp %, low IQ whatever it is) in today's NFL.

    For all the talk of Cutler having his best season he's still has 13 TD's and 11 TO's(8 ints 4 fumbles, 3 lost), that TO ratio is WAY to close to 1:1 then you need in your "top ten franchise qb". He's still only had 1 game where he hasn't either thrown an int or fumbled the ball; does that sound like a top 10 qb to you?

    FYI: I did the research, Cutler is not top 10 in ANY meaningful stat, comp % 12th, ypa 13th, not even top 20 in TD's ( I know he's missed 2+ games but I bring this up b/c he's still 14th in int's even though he's missed 2+ games, not in rating 13th, not in ypg 19th. What in the world would bring anyone to believe he was a top 10 franchise qb? Cutler is what he was the last 3-4 years, a top 12-15 (give or take a few) qb in the league, even w/ the qb guru as HC, a great QB coach, dynamic weapons at WR (top duo in the nfl right now), TE and RB, a good OL (not great). Anyone really think that if Rex or Orton couldn't be an AVERAGE qb w/all this? Hell McCown is looking all world in 2+ games and he doesn't have 1/2 the physical tools.

    The below in order of easily taken to debateable over Cutler:

    Manning(even at his age), Brady(even at his age), Brees, Rodgers, Rus Wilson, Cam Newton(3rd year finally figuring it out), Andrew Luck, Joe Flacco (ya horrible this season w/no weapons and not a good reg season qb, but name a better post season qb AND he has a ring and he's younger), Eli(historically bad year, but still played well enough for 2sb win's and is more durable), Romo(nearly the same as Cutler but still safer w/the ball, and for a guy that takes a ton of hits also is more durable). Ten I would take right now and right away happy. You can debate Romo if you want, but go look at the #'s and considering the mess that is Dallas it's not even debateable who the better qb is.

    Rivers(nearly the same but still safer w/the ball and is more durable), Stafford(younger vs of Cutler w/more room for improvement and is more durable), Big Ben(at the end of his career but still slightly better then Cutler and is ). guys you can debate and I won't argue much, but Cutler is not clearly better then any of them...wanna drop Romo in here okay, but still I'm not putting Cutler OVER any of these guys

    And for the record, for teams to build their future around give me Dalton, Colin K, RGIII. Right now these guys probably aren't on Cutty's level, but all have ceilings as high and probably better low ends and all are younger.


    TL:DC/DR

    He's not a top 10 qb, he's what he has always been, to 12-15 qb and he's starting to lose ground to the guys coming into the league. That is a guy you can win with, go deep into the playoffs, and if eveything breaks well can get to a SB and potentially win...but guys in the middle of the pack are fundamentally flawed, normally in turn overs or low comp % and would have to play out of their mind, or have the rest of the team carry them.

    That being said, you still need to FT Cutler next year to see if he can continue to improve his #'s, primarily his TD to TO ratio, AND stay healthy which is even more important then the TD to int ratio. I don't care how great his other #'s are if he cannot significantly lower his turn overs while keeping his TD's high, and continues to missing 1-2 or more games you cannot pay him 15-20 mil over multiple years.
  6. weneedmorelinemen

    weneedmorelinemen Veteran

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    Stafford is not more durable than Cutler. His fat ass has missed 25 games in his 5 year career. Romo collapses during high pressure games. Flacco has been a mediocre QB for most of his career except last year's post season run.

    Cutler has his warts too. But some the guys you are listing above him have more warts.

    I think the most important thing to think of is that we don't get to pick and choose the QB we think is better than Cutler. We can only take from the FA scrap heap, the draft, tag or make a deal with Cutler, or possibly a trade. From the options we have available to us, Cutler's the best guy we can get in 2014.
  7. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    He hasn't missed a game in 2 years. He missed 13 in his 2nd season.

    Romo collapes in high pressure situations; and Cutty doesn't? Romo TD to TO is 198 to 119, JC 149 to 144. Who's more likely to melt down again?

    Flacco has more post season career wins in his first 5 years then anyone OTHER Then Joe Montana, but he's mediocre? He's got the same low 60's com % as JC, the same near 1 to 1 TD to To ratio as JC and the same low 7 ypa as JC....what makes him Mediocre and JC franchise material? Other then Flacco's post season success and SB ring...oh wait that makes him NOT mediocre and what keeps the guy w/his same stat line AS medicore...if you think that way.

    I agree w/your last point, we don't get to pick, but you cannot say he's a top 10 franchise qb w/out backing it up...and there is nothing about JC that screams or even whispers top 10 franchise qb. I'm glad you are aware that FA qb's are scrap heap, we now agree on 2 things regarding qb's. But we disagree that Cutler is clearly the best guy the Bears can get in 2014, right now he definately appears to be that way, but you don't know what will happen. Before the Bears traded for Cutler it appeared the best we could do was draft a guy and go w/Orton for a year, but that wasn't the case. Before Sea went w/Rus Wilson, the best guy was Flynn, he then clearly got beat out by a 3rd round rookie.

    To assume that a guy that has been mediocre(your definiation of Flacco who is the same guy as Cutler) for his entirety of a Bear, including this year, cannot be replaced by someone is a dangerous assumption, escpecially when you are talking about 15-20 mil a year.

    That being said, I agree they need to keep Cutler next year, but that is based on right now, you and I have no idea what will happen in FA and the draft.
  8. weneedmorelinemen

    weneedmorelinemen Veteran

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    How many times have you seen the game on the line with Romo with some sort of playoff implication or in the playoffs, and at the end of the game the Cowboys lost directly because of Romo screwing up and was left sobbing on the field? He couldn't even hold on to a ball for a kick without failing.

    In 5 years Stafford has missed twice the number of games due to injury as Cutler's 8 years. Besides the fact that he throws the ball to Calvin Johnson, what makes him so special? It would be such a different story for that guy if he wasn't throwing to Megatron.

    Flacco has similar numbers to Cutler, except he and his team had a great post season run one year. He is currently making 20 million a year for the next six years. Why wouldn't Cutler rate a one year franchise tag which would be less than that number?

    I always refer to FA as either the scrap heap or the big box of broken toys. But Ric, don't be bitter that I was right about Josh McCown being a good backup QB when you thought some no name kid could be the #2 QB and do that job better than McCown is right now.

    I do like that one of your two ideas at QB for 2014 now is starting a rookie with the "substandard" McCown backing him up/ starting if he implodes. That's a nice change from your old "McCown is the worst QB ever" mantra. Aren't you afraid that all the other teams will have enough tape on McCown in 2014 to render him useless?

    No rookie QB has won a SB. In 2014, if the Bears want to be competitive, they need someone playing QB with some experience. They also need to fix the defense in a bad way. They can easily keep Cutler, McCown, and draft a QB to work with long term all in one year and do just that.
  9. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    Stafford hasn't missed a game in thee last 3 years, that's durability. Ya he had a slow start having inj's his 1st two years it happens, but he's not now and that's what matters.
    Cutler in the last 3 years. 6 missed, 1 missed, so far 2+ missed and going to miss at least 1 more.

    How many times has Cutler melted down and cost games? Plenty. Romo isn't great, but he's still better then Cutler hands down, he's still safer w/the ball then Cutler, and it's not even close. What you don't know b/c you obviously don't follow them is that the Dallas OL is atrousious, and their D isn't really all that good either. So them losing isn't all on Romo, and many Cowboy fans understand that. Does he cost them games, yep, same problem as Cutler, but it doesn't change the fact that he's not nearly as careless w/the ball as Cutler is...and the margin of which those two are careless isn't close.

    1 great post season run? Flacco's rookie year 2 post season wins, first rookie to ever win 2 playoff games, think he's the first rookie to have a great supporting cast around him? Nope.
    From wiki:
    Flacco has set consecutive NFL records for most starts by a quarterback in each of his five seasons,[1] bringing his team to the playoffs and winning at least one postseason game in each of those years. With Flacco as Baltimore's starting quarterback:
    the Ravens have won the AFC North twice,
    appeared in three AFC Championship Games,
    and won Super Bowl XLVII.
    Flacco was named Super Bowl XLVII's MVP, concluding a postseason run in which he tied Joe Montana's single postseason record for touchdown passes (11) without an interception.

    So let me get this right, Cutler has what 2 post season appearences 1 win; but he's a top 10 franchise guy?
    Flacco is mediocre and all he's done is take his team to the playoffs each of the first 5 seasons, and won at least 1 game each time, won 2 AFC North titles, got to the AFCN 3x's and won a F'n SB. All while now being tied w/arguably the greatest qb of our lifetimes in Joe F'n Montana. But HE'S MEDIOCRE?!?!?! Hell I wish a Bears qb that kind of mediocrity. What have the Bears qb's been if doing all that is mediocre?!?!?! Our qb's level of bad is lugubrious if Flacco is mediocre

    This is a bit, it's gotta be, you cannot be talking about the greatness of Cutler, AND calling Flacco mediocre at the same time. I cannot even finsih this conversation; ya I can.

    I'm not bitter WNML, I'm happy as hell McCown went from pathetic and a cast off to above averge, it's made for enjoyable Bears wins for me; I'm selfish like that. And I'm glad you can gloat about it, we all like to gloat it makes us feel warm and fuzzy. But my ideas have never changed on backup qb's, the only time you want "vets" is when you have a young qb yourself, unless you got balls like Wash and take 2 rookies, I like that idea even more, b/c one or both work out you just got more draft picks in return for trading one. And trust me if it was not for the miracle worker that is Trestman, I would want nothing to do w/McCown being on this team.

    I don't care if a rookie has won a SB or hasn't, there's a first time for everything. Besides this team is not SB ready, it wasn't this year and it won't be next year. Two many holes to fill, so rookie on the team learning, or playing doesn't matter this year or next.
  10. weneedmorelinemen

    weneedmorelinemen Veteran

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    How many times has Romo melted down when the season was on the line? That's the point. I don't like him because he's brittle when the pressure is on.

    Let's look at Flacco's rookie stats for those oh-so-important post season victories he was responsible for his rookie year. Dolphins vs Ravens 27 -9. You like stats, right. Flacco's stats? He completed 9-of-23 attempted passes, accumulating 135 yards without throwing a touchdown or interception. He did get a rushing TD on a QB draw.

    Ravens vs. Titans 13-10. Flacco was 11-of-22 for 148 yards and a touchdown. You add these two games up, and he's less than a 50% completion percentage, and you know how important that is. Stalled drives and whatnot. His OC Cameron limited the playbook for his rookie that year. Is he a better QB now than his rookie year? Absolutely. But he's got a lot of flaws and cannot carry a team like his contract suggests.

    When did I start talking about the greatness of Cutler? I don't think he can carry a bad offense either. But our offense isn't bad right now. It's on the upswing, with a lot of weapons. I want a starter who is familiar with Trestman's system. I think he's the best option available to the Bears for 2014 if they want to compete that year. I think he's better than some of the QB's you've listed, but that's just my opinion. And I don't want to see the Bears running a rookie limited playbook in 2014 when we could just play Cutler.

    You want to base your opinion on rookie QB as both starter and backup on the actions the Washington Redskins? They are an awful team. They will always be awful. Dan Snyder is more interested in making splashes in free agency and the draft than building a winning team. It's more profitable. They don't have balls, they have stupidity. Snyder has RG3 on a 4 year 21 million dollar contract right now, and he's not going to manage building a winner under Griffen. Then his big contract will hit, and he definitely won't build a winner under him. He will sell a lot of RG3 jerseys though.

    Trestman didn't work a miracle with McCown. He properly evaluated him as a good #2 QB. You did not, and continue to hold that against the guy. McCown passed the eye test for me in 2011 in his outings against Green Bay and Minnesota that year. You've been eagerly awaiting McCown to fall on his face so you can say you were right.

    And how can you say he's gone from pathetic to above average when you said in a different thread.

    Either he's bad or he's good, take your pick. Can't have both.

    If you think the Bears are going to start developing QBs and trading them, tell me the team that is currently doing that. Not GB developing guys like Brooks and Hasslebeck back in the day. Current teams developing rookie QBs into tradeable assets. Teams are trading old QBs like Carson Palmer all over the place.

    You want to know what I want the Bears to do? Fix their own problems at QB first. I don't need the Bears speculating QBs for theoretical draft picks just to make them better and trade them when they haven't managed to field quality QBs.
  11. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    What does cutler do in high pressure situations? nothing. That's why he's been to the same amount of playoffs as Romo.

    I know what Flacco was his rookie year, I know what he is now, he's still equal to Cutler in the regular season and 100x better then Cutler in the post season, which is why he's a SB winner and Cutler isn't.

    No he did work a miracle on McCown, McCown is a career 50% comp guy w/more int's(not including fumbles) then TD's. The fact that he's now a low 60%'s comp guy w/more TD's and no TO's is a miracle.

    He's having a career year, that doesn't change his past, he needs to string 2-3-4 more years like he's playing now before he's a good qb.

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