Kiwaunuka Calls NFL Contracts Unfair..............

Discussion in 'Chicago Bears' started by soulman, Jun 18, 2014.

  1. 4dabers

    4dabers Veteran DBS Writer

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    This isn't about how hard they work or how difficult it is for them to walk after a game. There are people that work much harder and leave the "playing field" with their legs blown the hell off (much less with the ability to walk) that don't get paid even a fraction of what these guys pay in taxes.

    They do not get paid for the difficulty of their work, but because of the rarity of their abilities to do so. There are obviously guys that play at a high level at Division I schools (something I could have never dreamed of) that can't even make it in the NFL. These are all elite athletes (even the back-ups) and the law of Supply and Demand dictates what teams are willing to pay them.

    The real issue is the fairness of the conditions of the contracts and not the $ amounts. Fairness, by definition, is that the contract is equally good and equally bad to both sides. His argument of "Unfairness" is based on one side and only one guy on one side. He argues the merits of "lets just go to one year deals then". OK, let's do that, lets see how many of your fellows players would like that with no guarantees for the future in the event of injury. My guess is that you wouldn't get a lot of takers. In my opinion, MLB contracts that are fully guaranteed are the contracts that are unfair. It's unfair to the team to spend that kind of guaranteed money when the PRODUCT isn't guaranteed. Let's don't forget the "hunger" factor that players have to get those fat contracts and lets not pretend that some players may back off a bit after getting it. It's human nature and we are ALL prone to it.
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  2. butkus3595

    butkus3595 Pro-Bowler

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    You think they avoid their tax payments like apple does? Hah! Thats where we disagree I guess. With great risk comes great reward, but I still believe they should have more protections in their contracts than they do. You can sit there very easily and think they get compensated enough, but until you've felt what they feel on a weekly basis you'll never really know.
  3. butkus3595

    butkus3595 Pro-Bowler

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    Like I've said, take the emotion about how much they make, and what you think you would do to make that much money out of the equation. Thats not the question being asked or debated. Kiawanuka brings up a good point, and he shouldn't have to shut up about it just because "he's made enough money to have his family generationally set", or "because he's still making 1.5 million". The rules are bent in favor of the teams and league when it comes to contracts.
  4. Ski-Whiz

    Ski-Whiz George Halas Staff Member

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    When the players start to run the team there is a problem.
  5. butkus3595

    butkus3595 Pro-Bowler

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    How would players having a fair contract terms equate to them running the team?
  6. butkus3595

    butkus3595 Pro-Bowler

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    I'm having a hard time understanding some of your responses to this article based on the fact some of you wanted to give an aging linebacker whatever he wanted just because he was an all time great Bear, and then lamenting on how cold NFL teams can be.
  7. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    employment is always favoring the person paying over the person working,
    a person paying has larger field of those wanting to be paid then vise versa so it's never going to be "fair". nor does it have to be.
    If you've got paid to the point that you know have made enough money to be a 1% 'r then bitching about your unfair contract comes off as petty and pretty ignorant.
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  8. butkus3595

    butkus3595 Pro-Bowler

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    And truthfully he's right to be upset because he played better last season than the season prior and they cut his pay!
  9. butkus3595

    butkus3595 Pro-Bowler

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    You're missing the point. It's not about the numbers. He's saying two sides signed a contract. When one side doesn't like the deal anymore they can just cut his salary, but if he doesn't like it anymore he has little to no recourse. So it's really only a "contract" on one end of the spectrum. In everyday life, if you sign a "contract", both sides must agree to the terms or there are legal implications. Further in the article he says he understands that that is how the league works and he can either "play or watch". That doesn't mean he has to like having his salary slashed, especially after he had one of his better years. I'm sure if his play was down he would understand...but it wasn't.

    And again...take the emotion of how much these guys make out of it.
  10. Ski-Whiz

    Ski-Whiz George Halas Staff Member

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    Meaning start pushing the team to make it favorable to the players vice ownership.

    When the players aact like they are the league, then we have aproblem.

    Look at the auto industry and unions. They sucked Detriot dry! The companies caved in and look at what's left.

    Players give a lot of money away, either in fine or organizations. So they have money to spend. Clearly they are not under paid.
  11. Ski-Whiz

    Ski-Whiz George Halas Staff Member

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    Have you seen a lot of Terms of Service agreements? Look at Facebook. You sign all your rights for your information.

    This happens everywhere. Either society starts to gain control of this, or you sign your rights away.
  12. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    i'm sorry did "both sides sign the contract" if so then he agreed to this. If he didn't agree to that term he should have had it removed; they wouldn't have and he wouldn't have a contract or be playing right now, but that was HIS choise.

    and players hold out for new contracts all the time, Urlacher did it at least 2x's. MJD and Forte both did it. So it's not one sided.
  13. Ski-Whiz

    Ski-Whiz George Halas Staff Member

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    They have the money, they make the rules. Welcome to America!

    Thats the way this land is run.
  14. butkus3595

    butkus3595 Pro-Bowler

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    Again...he said he understands that. You can know and understand something will or could happen and still be frustrated by it when and if it does. As for your examples, the fines teams can place on these guys make hold outs far and few in between now a days. Secondly...Matt Forte missed OTA's and mini camp if I remember correctly...he didn't hold out into training camp or the season and if he did so he would have been fined $30,000 per day missed.
  15. Jimmors

    Jimmors The Rhymenoceros Staff Member SuperFan

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    I think thats the gist of his argument...that NFL contracts ARENT guaranteed (i.e. a team can cut a player at any time, and not have to pay him the amount in the contract). Contracts are only "guaranteed" if the player is on the team during that time of the contract.

    Its a problem unique to the NFL, most pro leagues have actual guarantees that must be paid, even if the player is cut. And to double down on that problem, if a player in the NFL is cut due to injury, his chances of getting another high-paying contract when he is rehabbed and ready to sign on another team is very small (teams are rarely willing to shell out big bucks to players coming back from an injury serious enough that lead to him being cut).
  16. Ski-Whiz

    Ski-Whiz George Halas Staff Member

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    Just because they feel it's unfair. By them trying to steer the contract. Yes I understand negotations, but when the payers start ti demand too much, thats when they start to steer the team.

    It's the old argument of "without me, this comany is nothing". Look at revenue sharing.

    The whole arguement against the auto industry was how much money they were making. So the employees wanted more. They went on strike, and did just that.

    In the NFL the owners maintained the control, hence why players feel they need more.

    It's the owners team, they make the rules. They will have to cave in when needed, but in the end if the players don't like it, they can opt to do something else.
  17. Jimmors

    Jimmors The Rhymenoceros Staff Member SuperFan

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    Not exactly, the owners AND the players make the rules, via the CBA.
  18. butkus3595

    butkus3595 Pro-Bowler

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    I gotta be honest...I think you are misunderstanding what Kiwi is saying. He understands he can opt to do something else, he understands how his contract was set up, and he understands the rules he has to play by. THAT BEING SAID...he has a right to be frustrated by what can sometimes be a very arbitrary process..."Hey, we know you had one of your best years last year, but you need to take a pay cut of more than half". None of you like it when it happens to you, no matter if you're making $15 per hour, or 1 million per year. It would be even more frustrating to you if you had signed a contract stating you were to make a certain amount over a certain period of time. There are penalties in place for a player if he doesn't fulfill his part of the contract(fines for holdout's and such), however there is no penalty for a team for not fulfilling there end...and it's set up that way. That can be frustrating.
  19. soulman

    soulman Pro-Bowler SuperFan DBS Writer

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    Good post brother. This is what I was getting at. How do we as a well informed and certainly football intelligent group of fans see this issue that Kiwanuka brings up?

    I already know how the average Joe on the street will react. Just like they usually do. In this instance they'll tell Kiwanuka to shut up, take the $1.5 mil and be glad of it because he's making more money than they'll make in a lifetime. Of course if he was a FA and the team was negotiating with him on a new deal and playing hardball over a few mil in guarantees then it would be that the owners are all greedy bastards and they should pay the man because he the heart and soul of their defense. Have I got that about right guys? You know I have, admit it. :lol 027:

    There was a time not all that long ago when no contract was ever guaranteed and no one paid any player a signing bonus. HOF players like Butkus and Sayers were never guaranteed a penny in their deals. As much of a cheapskate as the Old Man was thought to be Gale Sayers was paid every nickel of his contract the year he was injured and the team paid for his surgery and recovery costs. The Bears did much the same for Brian Piccolo and although it's possible I don't really recall Walter Payton ever getting an upfront signing bonus or any guarantees because NFL Free Agency began in 1989 two years after he retired.

    It was the competition among team for top free agents that brought about signing bonuses, roster bonuses, and guaranteed salaries. So the NFL owner's sought a salary cap to put a lid on at least some of that to protect themselves from the predatory practices of one another not the player or their agents mind you. They can and often are their own worst enemies. And even with the current Free Agency System it's still not a totally free market deal for the players. Players are still subject to the draft and restricted free agent status and for top players there's the franchise tag and other protected player covenants.

    As far as "fairness goes, by your definition, these deals are fair because there are goods and bads for both. The Giants have outlived their bad (the risk of upfront money) while Kiwanuka is just experiencing his for the first time (after your guarantees are up we don't have to pay you squat). So on that basis 4da and NFL contract is "fair". As for Kiwanuka's idea of one year deals well wake up brother Mathias, they're already only one year deals from the teams perspective just not from yours.

    Would all player contract being bi-lateral one year deals be more beneficial? I doubt it and it would lead to even more lawsuits than the NFL already has on it's collective desks. Player A has a top year and is able to raise his one year salary from $2 mil to $10 mil the following year but player B who made $10 mil blows out his knee and may never play again. What's he worth? I'd say whatever he can net out of a lawsuit against the team because he was injured at work. I think the insurance industry would love it because they'd sell far more indemnity policies that paid off for career diminishing or career ending injuries and the teams would most likely end up paying for those just to protect themselves.

    The whole thing as it relates to Kiwanuka's deal seems a bit messed up to me. We made those offers of salary cuts to avoid being released for established vets before the start of Free Agency. Not only do I believe that shows proper respect for the player and his family but I also believe teams should be compelled to do it that way. Fail to do it and your man's salary is set for that year provided he makes the team. While this guarantees him exactly nothing as far as his current year paycheck goes (as Weems is about to experience) it will at least give him the opportunity to make a choice whether he better off staying, being fairly sure of his status with his existing team, or going into Free Agency looking for a better deal as Earl Bennett did and then didn't get AND got released. He gambled and lost.

    None of this is likely to change until a new CBA is negotiated but philosophically speaking I think they should level this part of the playing field t make it more equally bad for both sides. Right now it' slanted to the owners. Instead of making the when purely up to the owners I believe there should be a date prior to the start of Free Agency when that offer of a reduced salary must be made. A date enough in advance for a player to have an opportunity to discuss it with his agent and his family. It's a man's career and his livelihood were talking about and even if it is a rather large livelihood there is still the matter of fairness and the removal of all manipulation of the player as appears to be the situation in Kiwanuka's case.

    Truly, what choice did he really have? To risk complete unemployment or employment for even less than the Giants were offering him was pretty much like putting a gun to his head. He really didn't have a good choice and that's what he's angry about. I think given being in a similar situation most of us would feel that way too.
  20. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    Forte didn't have to hold out any longer into TC he got a contract that was inline w/where he was in his position for the NFL.

    And I'm all for players getting all the money they can. They deserve every dollar they can get, that's the American way. But I also don't want to hear 20-30 year old 1-10%'rs bitching about their lot in life. Shit's not guaranteed? Sorry about your damn luck, welcome to the real world where most things aren't, and be glad you at least got a little that was.

    As ski pointed out real 1 yr contracts, wouldn't be wanted by most players looking at a real legit shot at getting a serious injury anyways, the guaranteed money and the dead cap money is the way the NFL keeps teams from just cutting players. Cutler goes down w/a serious leg inj this year, they aren't cutting him next year b/c of the 19mil cap hit. I know most players aren't going to have that, but all the same any dead cap space is going to make the team way out if it's worth it.
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