The Bears will NOT be using the Read Option, per Cutler and Trestman

Discussion in 'Chicago Bears' started by Henry Burris, Aug 1, 2013.

  1. lklrlolnlilklsox

    lklrlolnlilklsox Position Coach

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    Thank the lord, I can't stand the wildcat, no matter how much you try to dress it up and re-name it, it's a hot-read-then-run system for athletic, crappyQBs.
  2. Bearsinhouston

    Bearsinhouston Position Coach

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    I can't say I agree with much of what you wrote. I do agree that it is not all on Cutler when they win or when they lose. I also agree that stats do not tell the whole story. However, in watching Cutler play, there is a lot to like. He can make all of the throws. He is a very tough player. What I do see see is a person that has changed they way he plays. I call it playing "scared", but that is not really fair. More like playing with a heightened awareness that you only have a short time to get the ball off and probably will only have time to look at one WR before you get hit. And that is the way he has played. Even when he has more time, he does not do his checkdowns. He is just playing in the same mindset. He did not always play like that. Also, when under pressure, he does not play well.

    There are a few things that I expect to mitigate this for this year. We still have a crap right side of the line. I do not expect Cutler to stay pressure free this year unless either Webb steps up or Emery pulls in someone new. However, the leisurly way that Lovie practices was a hige detriment to Cutler. He did not do well under pressure and time contrainsts. Those are the things that he needed to practice against. Trestman is doing just that, so even with pressure, I expect Cutler to perform better. At the faster practice speeds, Cutler is practicing making his read progressions faster. That was one of the things that was holding us back. He also has better release valves in Forte and now a real TE. I think he trusts them and more importantly, they are now really part of the offense as opposed to the Tice offense.

    We have not solved all of the issues, but I expect Cutler to be a different player. He was playing in lousy schemes under lousy coaches and not practicing in a way that worked on his weaknesses. If only one side of the line is weak, we can more effectively shore that up as opposed to trying to fortify the whole line. Last year the whole line was awful. We still don't have anywhere near perfection, but I think Trestman understands our biggest issues and had been addressing them. I really think that Cutler will play a different game than last year. Unfortunately, he is still going to take some shots and he willl still be under pressure.
  3. lazar

    lazar Rookie

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    "Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong"
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  4. lazar

    lazar Rookie

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    Nice post, and I agree with much of it. My post wasn't intended to hype Cutler, or to say he's elite or even very good. What I wanted to say is basically this. He has bad record with good teams, but those teams were better then Bears, and those qb had much more to work with so it's not a surprise that most games would end with a loss. If you take that this is who he is, a guy who loses against good teams, then that would mean he will continue to be the same player with the same stats even if sorounded with better supporting cast. Meaning that even if he played for Packers with all that talent around him, he would still have the same stats against good teams and would countinue to lose against Rodgers hame after game, even if Rodgers were throwing to Kellen Davis, Hester, Knox and Roy Williams with Bears offensive line and having Lovie as a coach. I don't know about you but I find it hard to believe that things would not be different. So what I'm saying is that Cutler could really be just a good middle of the road qb who's bad in big games, but until he has better players around him you can't really know. That's why you have all those experts who don't really know how to classify him. They would rank him 15th, but then they would rank both the offensive line and receivers in the bottom five. So if he's in the middle or so as a qb with bottom of the barrel supporting cast, could he maybe just maybe be better then that if talent in the receivers corps and offensive line improves? And if that happens, is it so unthinkable that maybe record against good teams also starts to improve?

    Thanks for the reply, it's nice to know that there are people in this site who can actually take a different opinion and not act like children.
  5. Bearstuff

    Bearstuff Yes, in the woods. Staff Member SuperFan

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    Baahahahahahahahahaha

    That "Newb" just schooled YOU. Why? Because he actually did read the stats that are relevant. The sad little almost article you cited only discussed a team statistic...wins/loses. Not one completion percentage, not one TD/Int ratio, not one QBR. And even if it did, there are other things to consider.....

    Yes, this is a team sport, and ultimately we want our team to win, but ignoring that there are roughly 60 offensive and 60 defensive plays per game, 11 players on the field for each one means that there are somewhere around 1,320 chances for someone to make (or not) a play effecting the outcome of a game. Cutler, nor any other player in the league, can't control all of those happenings.

    Does he hold on to the ball too long when things aren't going well.? Yes. Flip side of that is that he is willing to take a hit and doesn't give up (a la Rex, as Lazar stated).

    Does he focus too much on Marshall? Yes. Flip side of that is that we rarely send out more than 3 receivers (including Forte) on any play in previous years, meaning there are few options to begin with, and most of the time the other options aren't quality players. Oh, and teams are getting good pressure on him with only 4-5 rushers, meaning that those 3 receivers are being covered by 6 or more defensive players. We only have one player who can deliver consistently against double coverage.....Marshall. So yes, Cutler throws into double coverage......because sacks don't get your team positive yardage and scoring opportunities.

    Anyone remember the game tape quote "Tell Martz to go fuck himself?" Play calling has a little to do with it too. Sure he could go rogue, but you need a little luck to go rogue more than once or twice a game.

    So, you can't, if you are rational, pin wins or loses on a QB solely. This isn't track or swimming. It isn't a baseball pitcher serving up meatballs to the other team.

    Can Cutler be better? You bet! I expect more from him too.
    Is he elite? No, not with the talent around him thus far in Chicago, or Denver for that matter.
    Could he be elite? Quite possibly, but there are several things that need to come together for that to happen. The only QB's I've ever seen complete a pass to themselves were Favre and Steve Young - both weren't intended and both didn't do much (though field position allowed Young to score from the 1 yd line).

    We get that you don't like Cutler. Good for you (or bad considering that he is our only QB of consequence for at least another year). But at least bring something to the discussion if you are gonna hate on other members for disagreeing with you. Lazar schooled you. The good news is that class will be in session again after the next bell. The real question is, DID YOU DO YOUR HOMEWORK?
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  6. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    Lazar hardly schooled him. What he said had some validity, but in that long winded post was hardly 100% factual. There's a lot of issues w/Cutler that lie completely on Cutler.

    Want some stats on Cutler that matter, he holds onto the ball longer then just about any other qb in the league...he knows his OL sucks and he still holds onto the ball to long. CUTLER is part of the reason Cutler gets hit to much.
    Cutler has a near 1:1 TD to TO(int+fumble) ratio for his career, and that includes just his time in Den when he had a great OL, great WR's and great HC. You really think that doesn't hamper a teams ability to win? He had a D that was top 5 last year, and scored and turned the ball over an obsene amount of time, but that doesn't mater when you turn the ball over as much as he did last year....especially against .500+ teams, which is the stat Mr D is referring to. Mr D might well be way off on his assesment of Cutler, but so are most of those trying to put it all on Cutlers surroundings and nothing on Cutler himself.

    Both these happen b/c he insists on waiting until the WR makes his cut to see if he'll be open before throwing, he's done it since his time in Den. And it's something that a QB CANNOT do in the NFL, DB's are too good, and it's the reason why Charles Woodson said flat out that they weren't worried about Marshal or any other Chicago weapons b/c they know that Cutler will throw them the ball.

    Cutler has all the physical traits you could possibly want in a QB, but he's got to improve himself, he's got to take the instructions from Trestman and his staff and keep his mechanics solid throughout the game and season, and start throwing the ball to the spot the WR is supposed to be and not to the WR after he's open.
  7. MPbears68

    MPbears68 Pro-Bowler

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    In addition to purely mechanical issues (like that dumbass throwing off his back foot thing I hate), sounds like Trestman has been working Cutler hard on getting the ball out faster and having that "internal clock" in his head to tell him to either throw the pass or throw it away. Jay does need to improve there no doubt.

    You're right that Cutler has brought on some unneeded sacks himself by holding too long and he has forced throws he shouldn't have made which end up being picked. He definitely needs to get his TOs down this year.
  8. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    Yep and if he is actually going to take this training to heart he'll be a solid starter for years to come, if not he'll just be another guy w/a ton of talent never truly realized.
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  9. lazar

    lazar Rookie

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    I don't care if I schooled him, that wasn't my intention at all. And I don't claim that I know everything or I'm always right. In fact, I'm wrong a lot of time but the way he responded is weak. And that LOL, I mean really... I don't know what is worse, that a grownup actually uses LOL or the fact that he used it but didn't lough at all. That Denver stat line really isn't important here becouse he was a young qb then and didn't play long enough to take anything from it. What is important is what happend with the Bears, and here only thing he had is instability and bad talent around him. Yes, maybe he holds to the ball to long but maybe if he didn't do it Bears would hardly move the ball through the air at all. It's easy to say throw the ball, don't force it but of you actually lool at the games with attention you will see stark contrast between Bears passing attack and that of so called good teams. For the Bears every down is a struggle, rarely you'll se receiver wide open or things go smoothly, it's mostly struggle to survive. So often he has to force it, especially against good teams, becouse they dominate in the trenches and they dominate all Bears receivers except Marshall. So he's forcing it more the better the team is becouse if he did what a lot of people are saying, mainly throw the ball Bears would barely pass middle of the field in a game. About receivers I agree what you said, but for him to do that he would need to trust them. For him to start throwing the ball to the spot, he woud need to know that they will do what they have to do. Know you look who was he throwing since he came to the Bears and tell me that he should have trusted Hester, Knox, Davis, Aroma...
    And as for Woodson that's not why he said it, he's douchebag that's why he said it. A lot of players in this legue talk shit about someone, what all they have in common is that they are punks. Urlacher was called all kind of shit by his fellow players, should we believe that also? He was douchebag all he's career and he will always be one.
  10. MPbears68

    MPbears68 Pro-Bowler

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    This is going to become another one of those "good Cutler, bad Cutler" threads ;).

    It all factors in. There's stuff intrinsic to Jay that he must improve on. And it's also true that he's had shit for coaches and supporting casts all along as well. Would a better QB have done better? Yeah probably. Would a better QB (Brady, Manning, Rodgers, etc.) have done as well as they have done with the talent laden offenses they've actually played on? Probably not.

    This is his make-or-break year that will decide whether his arrow is pointing up or down for the future. He finally has a coaching staff competent to run a modern NFL offense. He finally has a solid receiving corps with multiple weapons. He finally (hopefully) has the makings of an OL that isn't a complete joke. Lets see what he can or can't be over the next 5 months.
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  11. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    ^^^This end of discussion.
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  12. billatter

    billatter Veteran

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    The faults ascribed to Cutler are coachable problems, ones often exacerbated by the play book, the play calling, o-line and receivers. Prior to Trestman's arrival, Calvillo was guilty of exhibiting the same flaws as Cutler, yet Trestman corrected them very quickly. He also made sure that the receivers' skill set and the play calling matched what he taught Calvillo. The same ingredients are being put in place here to cut the sacks, the bad throws and improve the TD/Int ratio. We'll have to wait and see how things turn out.

    Getting back to the subject of this thread, he won't ask his qb to do something that is really not a good idea. With Cutler's injury history, I doubt Trestman will be encouraging him to engage in plays that heighten that risk e.g. the read-option. The fact that the backups are getting a lot of early reps in TC suggests to me that Trestman plans to use them and not just in garbage time.
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  13. billatter

    billatter Veteran

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    i was trying to say the same thing a little more gently, but ya, lets move on and see how the season starts.
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  14. Bearsinhouston

    Bearsinhouston Position Coach

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    I completely agree. Cutler has his warts, but none of them need to be permanent warts. Much of what is wrong with Cutler is that from watching him when he got here ands watching him recently, he no longer is as comfortable in the pocket. He is always looking for pressure with part of his mind and is not focusing on progressions because part of his focus is in not becoming part of the turf. So he is not moving as fast as the game around him since he is thinking about too much. Lovie and his slower practices did not help him come out of that. Trestman is helping him speed things up again and hopefully the line will give him more time (from the left side anyway). Cutler is not a statue. He can avoid pressure pretty well. When they come at you from all sides or with almost no warning, no one can do much about it.

    I think what Trestman is doing with him will pay dividends. I wish the line was more solid than it is, but for the first time in years, we have made some significant progress. I think it will get addressed more next offseason. Where I saw no real progress in the last few years, I see a training regime that actually addresses what I feel can make a difference in Cutler seeing the field and having more time (more mental time, and probably more real clock time also) to make his check downs and so make better decisions. He also has more people around him that can catch and they will be better utilized.

    I think some people are focusing on Cutler not having been productive. While I agree with that, I am not sure that everyone sees that not all has been on Cutler or that progress is actually being made this year (the first time since Cutler got here) to actually address the deficiencies. Will he be a Peyton Manning? Probably not, but the guy has talent and to write him off would be a mistake. I think he needs to be evaluated as the year goes on to see how he responds to all of the changes around him. It could go either way. But even if he gets no better (and I would agree that a new QB should then be considered), why get rid of him until that better QB shows up? I certainly don't think the right appoach is to say he is not as good as we want him to be and then end up with someone else that is worse. If they are going to make a change, they need to line up their ducks first. But I wouldn't do a damn thing until I see the fruits of the efforts that are being made to address his deficiencies.
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  15. MPbears68

    MPbears68 Pro-Bowler

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    Thanks for that info, Bill. The more I learn and hear about MT, the more I love the (somewhat unorthodox) decision to hire him. I like the boldness of it and I like MT's resume as a "QB polisher". No question, the stars are aligned, and intentionally DESIGNED, to make this a Cutler-Eval year. I see three broad categories of possible outcomes:

    A) Jay has a lights out year and gets a big money contract. He becomes "the guy" for the foreseeable future, silencing the doubters.

    B) Jay flops or disappoints despite the much improved resources handed to him this year. The team lets him walk in FA next year and drafts a QB in round 1 to take over and start over.

    C) (most likely) Jay improves noticeably but doesn't take us on a deep playoff run. The team tags him or gives him a more modest extension and drafts a QB in round 2-3 to develop for a year or two down the road.
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  16. Bearstuff

    Bearstuff Yes, in the woods. Staff Member SuperFan

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    Check the score again. Mr. Deliverance's retort was "read the article and the stats then come back". Well, the article's only stats relate to wins loses. At least Lazar recognizes that this is a team sport and isn't blinded by hate. You've got a little hate too Ric, though you can actually debate a little. Oh, and while Cutler was in Denver, they did score lots, but also had a miserable defense....hence losses.



    But, you are correct. The thread is about the read option, and I don't think it is a good idea w/ Cutler at the helm. Maybe for a gadget play 3 times all year, but nothing more.
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  17. lazar

    lazar Rookie

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    I just want to say that the point of my posts was to have a little dicussion, to try to look at the whole picture. Just looking at stats is a really bad way to come to conclusions about anything.
  18. Bearsinhouston

    Bearsinhouston Position Coach

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    No, but they are one of the only data points that is objective. Of course, you have to look past the raw numbers to look at extenuating circumstances and further, you have to be able to decide wheter those circumstances have left a permant mark or whether they can be corrected and then going even past that, given a correction -- what is the new ceiling. That's where the magic is as well as a person's ability to understand and reason. But if you don't start with the numbers, you don't even have a baseline.

    I don't think you are saying anything different. It is not all about the numbers, yet without the numbers, everyone would be equal.
  19. lazar

    lazar Rookie

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    That's exactly what I was saying, only you said it a little bit better:)
  20. billatter

    billatter Veteran

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    To flesh out the change wrought by Trestman on Calvillo, when Trestman took over, Calvillo went from averaging a TD/Int ratio of 1.7 to 3.4, average passing yards per game from 226 to 292, and TDs per game from 1.2 to 1.9. To add context, in 2011 for a good part of season, Calvillo had to play with the knowledge that he had lesions on his thyroid that were probably cancerous (they were). In 2012, the D wasn't up to its usual standard. Sacks were way down as well.

    And he achieved this with Trestman after the age of 35 when most qbs are retired or on the verge.

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