Tucker: Round 2

Discussion in 'Chicago Bears' started by Grizzblue, Mar 27, 2014.

  1. The Benjamin

    The Benjamin George Halas Staff Member

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    No doubt. Our defense was bad before the injuries. But I think we would have been a lot better (maybe middle of the pack) if not for the injuries
  2. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    The D was bad before the inj's, but WAS middle of the field, which would have been acceptable by most who saw a decrease on the horizon regardless of who the DC was.
  3. JustAnotherBearsFan99

    JustAnotherBearsFan99 Coordinator SuperFan DBS Writer

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    The metric often used is AGL, Adjusted Games Lost. There are others used too (Man Games Lost). And of course, injuries do affect a team, but you'd be surprised that good teams often do overcome injuries and perform well. Green Bay is one team that seems to do this - but they are far from the only team that overcomes injuries. Their super bowl year they had an outrageously high AGL (over 80 AGL, games lost) yet the won a super bowl that year. Did injuries hurt their team that year? Sure. But they won the Super Bowl anyway.

    In 2012, Green Bay's AGL was off the planet high (108 AGL games lost), yet they won the division - we didn't. - and we were the 3rd healthiest team in the NFL that year (AGL). Winners find a way to win championships. Losers lose.

    Even if you look at this in terms of MGL (man games lost), the Packers last year were at 195, and we were significantly healthier at 177. Seattle won the Super Bowl and they had over 150 MGL. Was Seattle hurt by injuries? You bet. Did they win anyway? Yes. They won the Super Bowl.

    Winners find ways to win & overcome adversity. Losers? They lose.

    EDIT: You can Google these metrics on Football Outsiders and other sites. I like the Football Outsiders site myself.
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2014
  4. short faced bear

    short faced bear Assistant Head Coach DBS Writer

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    I don't know how much adversity could have been overcame last season but a solid scheme, fundamentals, and communication were not one of them. With new coaches in almost any sport there are injuries and adversity-some more than others. Not once last season did I see even a remote glimmer of things to come. Not even a small nuance.

    Right now until he proves me wrong I'd have to agree w/Ski about Tucker. Hope to eat crow about it though.
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  5. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    JABF, if you were to list what each player was worth to a team in games won/lost, where are Briggs, Tillman, Melton, DJ, Collins worth? Would that amount to 1 or 2 games?
    I'm betting Briggs and Tillman would be worth around a half a game a piece at least, and probably Melton too. that's 1.5 games right there minimum, probably more honestly. That's not including DJ or Collins.

    That is a playoff spot, is Tucker a shitty DC when he's part of a playoff team for the first time in years?

    This also doesn't take into account a guy lost but wasn't inj'd like Wootton who was on the field, but not as effective b/c of those inj's.
    Is Wootton at DE instead of Shea worth at least 1 game? I think he is. Are teams running for 6ypc w/Melton and Wootton on the DL instead of Wootton and Shea or is it closer to 4? Now add in Paea playing hurt and not being as effective, if he's able to plant are teams trucking through the middle, no and that's sitting under 4 ypc now, is that a bad D ranking near the bottom?

    GB during their SB year still never lost pro bowlers at the rate the Bears lost last year.
  6. JustAnotherBearsFan99

    JustAnotherBearsFan99 Coordinator SuperFan DBS Writer

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    I would counter to say that some of this is subjective & you can't scientifically measure it. I agree that the metrics in place don't measure injury impact between teams perfectly by any means. And I'm not saying injuries to starters don't hurt ALL teams EVERY season. We can whine about how ours is bigger than theirs. But I believe winners often find ways to overcome injury and adversity. We have all seen this, and it spans many (if not all) team sports, and at all levels (not just pro teams).

    There are a number of reasons why we gave the division away to the Packers last year - and in other years. Injuries certainly play a role in that. Last season is over and we've pretty much beat the dead horse here about the injury thing. I don't think anyone is going to change their view on the subject (I'm not). Let's just hope the Bears (and yes, I'm hoping the Cubs) can win a championship here in Chicago. I'm getting tired of the excuses as to why we fall short every year. Here's to a bright new year and hope :)
    I'm getting tired of the "lovable losers" thing.
  7. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    your AGL is just as subjective though.

    Winning GM's draft better and create more viable depth then what JA did, your asking Tucker to lose 3 pro bowlers and several other key peices and to coach up guys that shouldn't be there and comparing to what a team that has succesfully drafted for starters and depth did. It's not a equal comparisson.
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  8. JustAnotherBearsFan99

    JustAnotherBearsFan99 Coordinator SuperFan DBS Writer

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    I agree about the AGL. I also agree that the better GM's draft better and create more viable depth. I'm not trying to lump all the blame on anyone, but I'm also not trying to excuse everyone - if that makes any sense. Plenty of blame to go around, and certainly some blame does go to injuries with pitiful depth. I do believe Emery will keep us with stronger depth from here on out. He probably needs one more year (and draft) to truly do this on both defense and offense......the offense still needs better depth at some positions too.
  9. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    That's fair JABF, but I think in the list of blame for the D woe's you can assign in order of importance this:
    JA/Lovie-Lack of Talent/Depth
    Inj's to key components ie pro bowler/starters
    Emery/Tucker letting the inmates run the assylem/not being able to adapt to the problem at hand.
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  10. butkus3595

    butkus3595 Veteran

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    I already addressed Green Bay's Super Bowl team. They lost ONE impact defensive STARTER that season for the majority of the season/post season in Morgan Burnett. Other than that they lost nobody if large importance, they had 4 pro bowlers on that defense. Their 2012 team didn't lose the amount of impact starters either, and we were a play away from winning the division.

    So as I said, find me the team that lost the amount of IMPACT STARTERS that we lost on defense that were successful.
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  11. butkus3595

    butkus3595 Veteran

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    Also don't forget about sedrick ellis retiring during camp.
  12. mdbearz

    mdbearz Veteran

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    I will give Tucker a pass for 6 games.
  13. Grizzblue

    Grizzblue Pro-Bowler

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    Absolutely he is if he is if the unit is giving up 161yds/game on the ground at a rate of 6 per attempt. Those are laughable numbers, dead last by a long shot in the number one priority of any defensive unit and staff. If you cant find ways to stop the run your team will lose simple as that. Giving up that kind of ground yards give the entire team simply no chance at being successful.

    Look, the past is the past. I really hope that Tucker can prove to be a solid DC and a partner for Trestman for the long term. In fact, I like the way the guy carried himself when he brought himself out of the box. I like the fire that he seems to have. I want him to be successful here. But what I don't want more than anything is to see another year of this window that we have with our offense go down the drain because of another absolutely pathetic unit. Emery has went balls to the wall getting him the pieces. After the draft I strongly suspect that he will have even more help on the unit in the form of a starter or two and some depth guys. Short of our defensive bus crashing on the way to a game, there are no excuses next year and if we see similar trends to last year he should be replaced by week 10.
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  14. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    Grizz you act like his Def system is set up to give up 6 ypa, and it wasn't the players on the field that were unable to execute. The PLAYERS gave up 6ypa not Tucker, not his scheme, not his teaching, not his coaching, the PLAYERS. The PLAYERS weren't good enough.
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  15. butkus3595

    butkus3595 Veteran

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    AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN!!! Listen, look at our offense with Martz...did the guy forget how to call an effective offense when he got here? No...we just didn't have talent! Certainly not the talent to do what he wanted to do on offense. Tucker wasn't the one out there over pursuing plays, Tucker wasn't out there missing tackles or blowing coverages. How many times were our guys there, but didn't execute. As a former player I've been part of great play calls that I didn't execute properly and it cost the defense(I still have nightmares about a great blitz call we had on with a team on their 1 and I missed the tackle for a safety!(The DC threw a water bottle at my head when we got off the field), and as a coach I can't tell you how many times I've made similar calls but players didn't execute. And here's a news flash, the less talented the player, the more likely there are for NUMEROUS miscues.

    We weren't that talented on defense last year. This is an undeniable fact. We lost 3 pro bowlers to injury for large stretches, and then lost some of their replacements, we lost a guy who was a stud in the middle, and had to start rookies and former practice squad guys. This year the talent and depth issue has certainly been handled. We have much better depth along the line then we did last year, and we have some decent depth at safety now too. We still need some depth at corner, and could use another linebacker, as well as another dt, but I expect that to come in the draft. If everyone stays HEALTHY the expectation should be for marked improvement, and if that does not happen, Tucker should go. If we continue to lose key players the way we did this year though perhaps our attention should be turned to another area...I.E. training staff, practice practices, etc.
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  16. Grizzblue

    Grizzblue Pro-Bowler

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    We will just have to agree to disagree then, a good DC will put their players in a position to succeed. He has an entire offseason to review what went wrong and get it corrected. He also has a huge influx in talent and likely some quality youth coming in may. If we don't see substantial improvement from the unit and players alike there will be nobody else to blame. Tucker has alot of film review and reflection to do on both himself and the players as BOTH were at fault last year.
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  17. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    Grizz we don't disagree on that I agree wholy that coaches have to put players in a position to succeed; but the PLAYERS have to be good enough to execute, and last year was proof of that.
    Again go back to Cleveland and Bill Bellecheck:
    1) He a bad HC that didn't know how to put his players in a position to succeed
    2) He e not have the players to succeed
    Based on his run in NE, it was option 2.
    a team to succeed has to have both players and coaches and, and that is what the Tucker fired crowd is ignoring. I've never backed Tucker, I never said he was good bad or indifferent, only said that you cannot judge him based on last year b/c no coach is going to look good when they lose 5 starters 3 of which are pro bowlers, and all on D.
  18. Grizzblue

    Grizzblue Pro-Bowler

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    I never meant to reignite a "we should have fired Tucker" debate. We didn't. He's here. What I hope to see from him this year is running his scheme and coaching what he knows. Shea potentially at SAM really I think will be a decent test for what kind of DC he is. A good coach has to be able to tweak and adapt to what they are given, and maximize what players do well while minimizing what they do poorly by scheme. I will be very interested to see how he uses Shea at SAM. IMO we should see a bit more of an aggressive defense. I also will be looking for improvements from Conte, Bostic and all our young players. I'm actually pulling for Mel, but it remains to be seen.
  19. a_miljan

    a_miljan Veteran

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    Its Belichick goddamn it! :) Hes got origins from my country
  20. JustAnotherBearsFan99

    JustAnotherBearsFan99 Coordinator SuperFan DBS Writer

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    Martz was an idiot before he came here. The game had passed him by. But the fans got all "giddy" when we brought him in (same with Mike Tice). Of course you need talent. But you also need a decent coach too. Otherwise why even have coaches? Just let the player-mob figure it out themselves and play sandlot on Sundays. Might as well have Jauron or Wanny here instead of Trestman if it doesn't matter. You need talent and solid coaching.

    I get a bit irritated when we blame everything on the players and give coaches a pass. Both need to produce.
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2014

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