Waiting for the Emery shoe to drop

Discussion in 'Chicago Bears' started by Bearsinhouston, Aug 23, 2014.

  1. Bearsinhouston

    Bearsinhouston Position Coach

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    6,073
    Likes Received:
    1,164
    Ratings:
    +1,547 / 5 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    743ß
    Emery never lets good talent get by him. This is just the first cuts so the most marginal players are the only ones being cut, but those marginal players on teams like Seattle might still prove to be an upgrade for us depending on the position.

    Be interesting if Emery signs one or two players in the next couple of days.
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  2. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2006
    Messages:
    21,619
    Likes Received:
    2,524
    Ratings:
    +2,976 / 8 / -8
    ßearz ßuckz:
    989ß
    hopefully they can find 2 legit S's, and maybe a decent LB or 2
    • Like Like x 3
  3. Bearsinhouston

    Bearsinhouston Position Coach

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    6,073
    Likes Received:
    1,164
    Ratings:
    +1,547 / 5 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    743ß
    And a DC... Can you find a Dc on the waiver wire?, LOL
    • Bear Down! Bear Down! x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1
  4. JustAnotherBearsFan99

    JustAnotherBearsFan99 Coordinator SuperFan DBS Writer

    Joined:
    May 21, 2012
    Messages:
    9,059
    Likes Received:
    2,082
    Ratings:
    +2,368 / 3 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    768ß
    I was going to post that BIH, but didn't want to light a match in the Tucker fumes here. LOL, but I did think that exact same thing :-)
  5. little bear

    little bear Assistant Head Coach

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2008
    Messages:
    12,067
    Likes Received:
    724
    Ratings:
    +822 / 1 / -2
    ßearz ßuckz:
    726ß
    I'd rather have a new ST coordinator than a new DC tbh.
    • Like Like x 2
    • Bear Down! Bear Down! x 1
  6. The Benjamin

    The Benjamin George Halas Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2006
    Messages:
    46,368
    Likes Received:
    1,676
    Ratings:
    +1,873 / 6 / -8
    ßearz ßuckz:
    850ß
    Our STs are a mess
  7. Bearsinhouston

    Bearsinhouston Position Coach

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    6,073
    Likes Received:
    1,164
    Ratings:
    +1,547 / 5 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    743ß
    eh... what the hell, I might as well. But I do want to say that as much as I think Tucker really is the problem after watching how the d is playing that I really do want to give him 3 or 4 games into the season. Sometimes what you think is the case is really not the case and I'd like to be more sure.
    It's not looking too good for 'ol Mel though.
    • Like Like x 2
  8. Bearsinhouston

    Bearsinhouston Position Coach

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    6,073
    Likes Received:
    1,164
    Ratings:
    +1,547 / 5 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    743ß
    LB, DeCam is worse than Tucker, but the D play has more effect on our game. I'd rather see the D fixed and take our chances with the ST game.
  9. RochBear

    RochBear Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2014
    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    22
    Ratings:
    +37 / 0 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    92ß
    I have a lot of trouble figuring out what fraction of the responsibility for a bad defense to lay on the 20 or so actors (DEs, DTs, DefCoach, HeadCoach, LBs ....). I sometimes think I can eyeball judge bad DT or LB play (loads of examples last year). The judgement of coaches for good/bad defense is so vague that I don't trust it.

    Special Teams may be a little different and I am open to the possibility that the ST coach is the most important ST person. Toub certainly looks golden by taking KC up so far, but ST performance doesn't correlate well across years (Bears and Patriots aside). The Bears in 2013 were 11th best in the NLF (according to the measure I like, http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamst). Not as good as Toub usually managed but not bad at all. This pre-season they have been obviously awful. If that level of performance occurs in the regular season, I'm sure DeCam will be fired. I expect though, that the Bears will be about average. Preseason has been for special teams experiments, the regular season is for performance.

    My 2 cents.
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  10. soulman

    soulman Pro-Bowler SuperFan DBS Writer

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2004
    Messages:
    4,730
    Likes Received:
    1,457
    Ratings:
    +1,844 / 6 / -3
    ßearz ßuckz:
    1,537ß

    Let's just double dip. It's OK.
    • Like Like x 1
  11. soulman

    soulman Pro-Bowler SuperFan DBS Writer

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2004
    Messages:
    4,730
    Likes Received:
    1,457
    Ratings:
    +1,844 / 6 / -3
    ßearz ßuckz:
    1,537ß

    Still having Hester as a KR/PR helped boost the rating of our return units last years but the coverage units were spotty and we gave up a KOR TD. So far this year the STeams suck in all four phases. I want to say that I believe having CWill healthy and able to contribute will help tremendously in the return game but not if we can't block any better than we have so far.

    I don't even want to get started on the coverage or the kicking games. Coverage sucks and the kicking games need to come around. Robbie is missing FGs he normally makes with is eyes shut and O'Donnell can tackle but he still lacks consistency on his punts. If he hangs the one that Thomas nearly scored on there would have been no tackle for him to make. Both need some work.

    How do we know whether a problem is caused by players or coaching? To me it's pretty simple. If the caliber of the talent at their disposal is good, and for both Tucker and DeCamillis it is actually quite good, and players are still having trouble lining up correctly, missing assignments, and failing to control their gaps or lanes on defense or in coverage then you have coaching issues.

    There are still far too many times when guys are looking around for a cue as to where to line up and what key's to follow. In general that same "Chinese Fire Drill" look before a snap is still going on and that is Mel Tucker's fault. He has the overall responsibility for seeing to it that his players know WTF they're doing and he's the one making the defensive play calls. Missed tackles are only indirectly his fault. That's more on the positions coaches. But misalignment, missed assignments and general pre-snap confusion is ALL on him.

    As for STeams it isn't even a matter of missed tackles. Either the coverages are poorly designed or these guys can't stay in the lanes and that's a discipline issue that goes directly to coaching. I believe we have too many guys trying to make a play in coverage and not sticking with their assigned lane. Guys trying to make the team by getting noticed through a big play tackle and getting cut off so there are holes big enough drive a dump truck through. Maybe it will improve after the final cuts. I hope so.

    That doesn't explain the piss poor return game though. Where in the hell did Emery come up with that bunch and why in the blue hell were they even thinking about Weems taking over as a KR/PR guy. He couldn't even give Hester any competition for the KR job and that was supposed to be Weems long suit and not Hester's. And where did the rest of those bums come from and why is Spurlock still being considered as a returner? I have no idea who throwing the lever on those decisions but if it's Joe D then yeah, he needs to go because his judgement stinks.

    The stuff were talking about isn't fixed overnight so for Trestman to imply that just by going back and looking at some tapes they'll have this all resolved by next week is bullshit. These are not tiny problems and if it's not the players but rather the coaching then how does looking at some tapes solve a problem if the same coaches are in charge?

    It's unfortunate but what we're learning is that our DC and STC are not of the same caliber as our OC and HC when it comes to getting their problems solved and their units turned around. It's time for all of us to stop making excuses for them. This isn't about the sky falling it more about the storm clouds gathering on the horizon.

    After weeks and weeks of OTAs, a mini camp, a full scale training camp and three preseason games we have players on both defense and special teams who either don't know their assignments or don't have the discipline needed to carry them out. That usually happens when the coaching philosophy is unsound and players don't believe what they're being told will work so they end up freelancing. That may work in college defenses but it never works in the NFL.

    From what I can see so far this isn't about player talent. On paper were as good as any team in the league on every unit but we aren't playing like it and that's all about coaching.
    • Winner Winner x 1
  12. Bearsinhouston

    Bearsinhouston Position Coach

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    6,073
    Likes Received:
    1,164
    Ratings:
    +1,547 / 5 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    743ß
    Key up church music.... Can I have an AMEN!!!
    • Like Like x 1
    • Bear Down! Bear Down! x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. B-ell-y-iot

    B-ell-y-iot Veteran SuperFan

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2014
    Messages:
    236
    Likes Received:
    193
    Ratings:
    +285 / 1 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    250ß
    What metrics do you use to grade player talent?

    I know profootballfocus doesn't get a lot of love for the work they do at grading players and taking feedback, but they at least have a metric to evaluate player talent and by their ratings, which are vetted by a huge community of posters and subscribers, the Bears are one of the weaker teams in the NFL talent wise. Hell in the NFC North, we're at the bottom of the pile too.


    Category

    Chicago Bears

    Minnesota Vikings

    Green Bay Packers

    Detroit Lions

    Elite

    1

    1

    3

    2

    High Quality

    2

    4

    3

    4

    Good Starter

    10

    11

    6

    7

    Avg Starter

    10

    9

    11

    15

    Below Avg Starter

    17

    12

    14

    7

    Poor Starter

    4

    5

    1

    3

    Not enough info

    9

    13

    13

    11

    Rookie

    8

    11

    9

    8

    # avg & above

    23

    25

    23

    28
    information synthesized from profootballfocus.com

    On a unit by unit basis these are the grades
    Quarterback: Above Average
    Running Back: Above Average
    Wide Receiver: Above Average
    Tight End: Above Average
    Offensive Line: Average
    Defensive Tackle: Average

    Defensive End: Above Average
    Linebacker: Below Average
    Safety: Below Average

    Defensive Backs: Above Average

    My own personal grades of the units this pre-season are:
    • defensive tackles: above average with average depth.
    • defensive ends: above average with average-above average depth.
    • linebacker core: below average with below average depth
    • safety group: below average with below average depth
    • defensive backs: below average with below average depth
    • QB: average (maybe slightly above average) with average depth
    • RB unit: average with average depth
    • TE unit: above average with average depth
    • WR unit: above average with above average depth
    • OL unit: average with average depth

    The truth, is we are below average talent wise on defense. Watching any game, reading any objective columnist / analyst, hell looking at these boards, will reveal that. More than that, we are a lower tier team on overall talent on the team. We do, however, have key players on offense and in an offensive dictated era, that's why we look so good on paper.
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2014
    • Like Like x 1
  14. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2006
    Messages:
    21,619
    Likes Received:
    2,524
    Ratings:
    +2,976 / 8 / -8
    ßearz ßuckz:
    989ß
    Hey but we have over the hill at one time pro bowlers that counts for elite D talent right!!!!
  15. RochBear

    RochBear Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2014
    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    22
    Ratings:
    +37 / 0 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    92ß
    To some extent, sure, I agree. But to some extent 'recognition' and on-field IQ is a player-talent. I don't think Payton Manning is physically gifted as a NFL qb any more. On the contrary he is probably well below average starter quality there. I don't think those mental traits are due to the Denver coaches, or even the Indy coaches. Now QB is a position that is very heavy on requiring that recognition talent but it helps on defense too, particularly on read-react schemes. I think some guys just have that (to name a Bear, perhaps Forte) and some guys don't (Bostic? ).

    The first team D stopped the Eagles cold, were crushed by SeaHwks and look pedestrian against the Jags. I take all that to mean they are low average, perhaps about fitting with the percent of the cap space spent on Defense.
  16. Bearsinhouston

    Bearsinhouston Position Coach

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    6,073
    Likes Received:
    1,164
    Ratings:
    +1,547 / 5 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    743ß
    good. Now you get it!
  17. soulman

    soulman Pro-Bowler SuperFan DBS Writer

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2004
    Messages:
    4,730
    Likes Received:
    1,457
    Ratings:
    +1,844 / 6 / -3
    ßearz ßuckz:
    1,537ß

    You seem to need metrics to back you up more than I do B-. I use my eyeballs more than I do stats for many things. PFF is a source people love to quote because it's available but they're far from infallible as it relates to things such as player rankings. You may claim they're vetted, and you would since that's what you're using to back your contentions, but they aren't my Holy Grail when it comes to this stuff.

    I'm not fully discounting metrics but in many things people can get far too hung up on the numbers (especially someone else's) and forget to use their eyes and intuition. If you need metrics to see that a player can or can't play the game then that's your way of doing it but it isn't mine. That's simply one part of the process, not the entire process you'd like to make believe it is here. It isn't for me and it's isn't for a guy like Phil Emery although he'll use it when it helps.

    Look, I've been having far too many debates over the years with posters involving players like Cutler and Forte and a few others to feel like what I can see isn't just as valid a source for developing impressions as any metrics available. The metrics only confirm or deny what people see if they're watching without bias. Besides someone still has to develop those metrics and what's included or not included are subject to the whims or decisions of the evaluator. They aren't totally objective.

    Average, above average, below average, blue players, red players, green players, is all great stuff for selling magazines or subscriptions to analytical sources and maybe it help and maybe it doesn't. A few years ago we had a defense that would have been ranked above average when we played GB and their below average defense in the NFC Championship Game. We went home and they won the Super Bowl.

    So all of that stuff while useful in a very general sense still doesn't replace your eyes and common sense evaluations of what you see going on during a game. I'll stick by those.
  18. soulman

    soulman Pro-Bowler SuperFan DBS Writer

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2004
    Messages:
    4,730
    Likes Received:
    1,457
    Ratings:
    +1,844 / 6 / -3
    ßearz ßuckz:
    1,537ß

    Payton Manning succeeds as a field general because he knows how to avoid "Chinese Fire Drills" and can create order out of chaos while running a rapid fire passing attack. He's very good at that. Some guys just see it all better than others. They're very advanced at conceptualizing the game they're running.

    Once Urlacher retired we no longer had a field general to run that defense like that and it shows. Lance Briggs? LMFAO. He's as bright a defensive leader as a 15w light bulb. The guy is a great player but he's not student of the game and he got away with a lot for years because he played with Urlacher. Now he's being asked to step up and he can't. It's not there. He can't conceptualize the entire defense like Urlacher could.

    I don't what the solution is Roch. Emery tells us Bostic has got that "it" ability to be a great defensive leader but to be honest with you I haven't seen it yet. The guy get suckered out of position more than any other LB on the team. McClellin? Nope, wrong personality. The reality is we're far weaker in on field leadership than we are in talent although B- will probably disagree with me there. So add to that what I consider to me pretty weak leadership on the part of Mel Tucker and you get an idea of the mountain we're trying to cut down to a hill.

    All the film study in the world won't fix that. If Tucker wants to win with this defense led by a guy like Briggs or even Bostic then he needs to make it very simple and just turn those guys loose to play as aggressively and in your face as they can. This is not an uber intelligent read and react bunch. These guys play best on instinctive football skills and on the attack. I think Tucker doesn't get that and if he never does the problem will never be fixed while he'd DC.

    I can't teach a beginner guitar student how to play Malaguena on a classical guitar but I can teach one how to reason his way to scales and chords just by knowing how to combine them in a logical way. It's pretty much instinctive deductive reasoning like 1,3,5,_,9 fill in the missing number. Once they can do that they can begin to teach themselves how to play Malaguena.
  19. B-ell-y-iot

    B-ell-y-iot Veteran SuperFan

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2014
    Messages:
    236
    Likes Received:
    193
    Ratings:
    +285 / 1 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    250ß
    Metrics provide people with a way of making objective comparisons, they are used to make subjecive things more objective. Certainly they aren't infallible and I am by no means saying that PFF is the be all end all. I recognize that you, and many other posters on this board don't put much value on their rankings and while I use them as one source, I never use them as the only one. I base my judgements on a variety of sources, like I did in the previous post. PFF is one source, these Boards are another, the game tape is a third, the articles I read everyday, when grouped together, is a fourth.

    More to the matter of your point, you were the one who originally stated:
    I take on paper to mean stats or at least written evaluations of players. I pulled in PFF primarily because you said "on paper" which I interpreted as meaning player grades which are the busines o PFF.

    I'm curious how you rank out our different units. On a score of 1-3 (one being below avg, two being avg, three being above avg) or using any other scoring system you want, how do you see the different units of the Bears?
    Quarterback:
    Running Back:
    Wide Receiver:
    Tight End:
    Offensive Line:
    Defensive Tackle:
    Defensive End:
    Linebacker:
    Safety:
    Defensive Backs:
    • Like Like x 1
  20. RochBear

    RochBear Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2014
    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    22
    Ratings:
    +37 / 0 / -0
    ßearz ßuckz:
    92ß
    You are so very right to not simply accept a metric just because it provides a nice handle. Why believe in any particular metric? That issue is why I am a fan of the DVOA of Football Outsiders. That metric, measured against all others they could find, was second best at predicting who would win the games (the key point, I'd say). First place? The Vegas spread.

Share This Page