What happened to our playmakers on defense? Is this coaching or talent?

Discussion in 'Chicago Bears' started by JustAnotherBearsFan99, Aug 16, 2014.

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What is wrong with this D?

  1. Ski-Whiz

    Ski-Whiz George Halas Staff Member

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    This will be my last post on this.

    People can argue what they will by looking at stats. When teams look at a player to sign etc, they don't put their money on what their stats say. They watch film. They don't care what the stats say. They watch film. Keep saying that last sentence.

    Regardless if Tucker had a top ten defense in Jacksonville, remember there are many things that make that happen. Schedule strength, offensive talent (Jacksonville gave opponents a lot of short fields), score are all things that can make a defense look better than it is. The SCORE will determine the beating a team will take.

    How many games did Tucker's defense win in 2012 (his last year in Jax)? I didn't see the top ten defense winning shit. Why?

    If you haven't watched the Jags under Tucker, I'm not sure why you are even commenting here.

    You my friend are doing what is called paper racing. You are picking a winner based on paper, not actual racing.

    I knew Tucker sucked the SECOND I heard on the radio he was our DC.

    He delivered what I expected. Blame injuries, but bad coaches amplified them.

    Healthy players on the field didn't give their all, period.

    I'm not the only person to see this, so stop looking at highlights, comparing stats. Brace yourself, because when this defense unfolds again, I'll be back to this thread.
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  2. butkus3595

    butkus3595 Pro-Bowler

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    This is just illogical. You want to cherry pick circumstances that lead to results and want ignore the totality of events that lead to a result. We'll see who's right this season.
  3. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    I went through that Jag's Def players for 2012, 3 are still on the team, and most are on their 4-5th, or out of the NFL. Only 2 names I even knew from that Def roster, Jason Babin and Austen Lane, and only b/c Lane is a Bear right now. That was an AWFUL roster. If they were dead last in the league in Def it would have surprised no one. Add to that the limited players on the O side; you are talking about a team that could only score 24 or more points twice that year, and you have a team that is doomed.

    Coaches need actual talent to coach. Del Rio couldn't sniff the playoffs until he left Jax, Bellecheat was a no nothing when in Cle until he left for NE, and lucked into Brady...and even then he had to cheat to get where he was, look at what he's done since spygate; squat. I would expect that Tucker and his D should look okay this year, and next year if they address the S's and depth of the team I expect him to look pretty damn good.
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  4. JustAnotherBearsFan99

    JustAnotherBearsFan99 Coordinator SuperFan DBS Writer

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    I agree with that. I think we're on the same page with most of this. I don't expect us to have a top defense either - although I'd love it if we did. I absolutely love watching a great defense work on a team that also has a solid offense (like the '85 Bears team). One unit will always be stronger than the other (offense or defense) but one of my points is that you can't have one unit so weak that you can't win games. I will never believe that Cutler's arm can beat the best teams in the league if we don't have a defense capable of slowing down the better teams we'll face (like Aaron Rodgers & the Packers). To me, that means we have to have a defense that is at least middle tier (around a top-17 or top-15 defense). I don't think that's being unrealistic in expectations.

    One other point that I was trying to make (not with you, but in general here) is that I hate low expectations of the Bears. A lot of fans I think are okay with the Bears (and Cubs for that matter) just being a non-championship team. Hear me out on this point. I think they'd be thrilled if we won another Super Bowl, but they are okay making excuses for why we didn't win a championship in any given year. I get so tired of reading why it was "understandable" that we didn't win the division.....like it's okay or something. Then like sheep they just say "wait 'til next year" and the cycle repeats. They seem to get angry if you set your own bar (expectations) to expecting a championship team. Super Bowl. Certainly not another year of looking up at the Packer's backside in the NFCN. I'm just wired to have high expectations of my sports teams. Of course this is crazy because I'm a Cubs and Bears fan. It does lead to frustration when the only Super Bowl trophy we have is from over a quarter century ago. And the Cubs haven't won a title in over 100 years.

    To get back to the point of this thread that I started, I am beginning to get disappointed with what I see on defense so far. I understand it's only preseason (I've watched over 50 seasons of Bears football so I understand how it all works) and I understand Tucker is pretty popular with a lot of Bears fans who still love him (although it reminds me of how they loved Ron Turner, Martz & Mike Tice in the early part of their coaching for the Bears offense under Lovie Smith). But, hey, I'm willing to give Tucker a chance to show what he can do this season. But I'm getting a sinking feeling that this guy is the defensive equivalent of a Turner, Martz or Tice. Hopefully I'm wrong. We'll see.

    You're always very patient when we don't agree on some things Ric, and I always appreciate that. We agree on far more than we disagree on. And where we do disagree, I figure that's okay too. It's a messageboard for heaven's sake. We're not solving world hunger or curing cancer here. But some folks really get their shorts in a knot when you question anything about the Bears in a critical way. But I understand that too. It's still the pre-season and "hope springs eternal" at this point.
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  5. butkus3595

    butkus3595 Pro-Bowler

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    A-freakin-men!!!!!
  6. butkus3595

    butkus3595 Pro-Bowler

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    I'm not trying to be a blind fan boy, but as someone who played and coached the game, and now prepares pros who play the game, I like to think I have an understanding of what goes on. I'm not saying tucker is buddy Ryan part 2, I'm just saying I don't think he was our problem last year. I don't agree that injuries aren't an excuse because they were catastrophic last year. We can see that this regime has worked hard to get players who buy into the system...both on offense and defense(see what they had to do with Bennett this camp), and if they don't they're gone. The offense was easy because I think Cutler and company would take anyone who could showcase their talents and knew how to call an actual offense. Tucker had an uphill battle to start replacing the players favorite coach essentially in Lovie, and it was made worse through injury and having to play guys out of position(Wooton is not a DT and Shea is not a starting defensive end...etc).

    I believe our defense will be better if it stays healthy, and I think we are a little deeper on the line than we were last year. I'm jot saying we will be Seattle, or even top 10 but we will be better.
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  7. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    We agree on this, 100%. I just think the team nearly there. But unless you think Sea is a 15-17 ranked D, don't look for the Bears to look like them :)


    We agree on this too. I don't like low expectations, it's why I was ready for JA and Lovie to be gone 2 years after the SB, they had shown gross incompetence with the team by then. But expectations and reality have to meet somewhere. reality is JA and Lovie left this team a disaster and in the meantime Sea/SF/Philly/Det/GB/NO's all caught up or passed the team by. That will take more then 1-2 years to recover from. So while I want the team back as the flagship of the NFL where it deserves to be, my expectations can't be there yet...the ol girl is still in the shipyard in midst of serious repairs.


    That's fair, but lets not go to extreme's with it either. I wasn't happy w/what I saw in the Jags game, but after listening to radio hearing analysts and beat guys talk about it, and reading some things I was more calm. I'm still upset about the S's and some of the backup CB's, I'm still not happy w/the play of Shea. But the reality is the team wasn't constantly gashed by the running game in either PS game; that's a HUGE first step, especially against Philly. The Def has shown an ability to pressure the QB, that's a HUGE 2nd step. Those are actually the 2 biggest issues from last year, and they are already there. Coverage/S play needs to be better, but I don't know how much you can take from that yet. B/c I don't know what they are looking to do in PS. None of us do. And we won't know until wk1.

    It's always been my thing, if we all agreed this board would be miserable. In most cases I think that's one of the reasons this place doesn't have more posts, most people agree w/what's being said. And few troll's bother showing up to cause issues.
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  8. JustAnotherBearsFan99

    JustAnotherBearsFan99 Coordinator SuperFan DBS Writer

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    A lot of what you have posted makes sense. I'm not giving up on the team or the defense. Not at all. But I am concerned a bit at this early point. I enjoy reading your posts. Not just on this but in general. It's okay if we don't always agree on everything. Your posts do make a lot of sense, even when we disagree. At least I can follow your logic.
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  9. BSBEARS

    BSBEARS Pro-Bowler

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    With respect to Tucker, each opportunity is different and I can draw no conclusions from his body of work in Chicago. Call them excuses or whatever but when you lose the players we lost and do not have solid depth the team will have issues. Green Bay lost almost all the games last year while Rodgers was out, they lost 5 including us, tied 1 with Minnesot and managed to win 2 games after signing Matt Flynn, who previously played there and new the basic playbook. So yes I believe injuries in Chicago and Green Bay played a major role last year for both teams.

    upload_2014-8-17_10-44-40.png

    Player rosters and experience play a huge part in the success of a coach. Look at Belichick from Cleveland to New England, more recently look at Pete Carroll. Anybody remember when he was head coach of the Patriots or the Jets??? There is just no way this guy could ever win a Super Bow and yet he showed up in Seattle and he is now the Head Coach of the team everyone wants to emulate

    upload_2014-8-17_10-54-31.png
    Here is how Carroll faired previously in the NFL.
    upload_2014-8-17_11-6-9.png

    Here is what Belichick did in Cleveland before moving on to New England.
    upload_2014-8-17_11-4-15.png
    I thought they both sucked and new they would never win a Super Bowl. The whole world new it.

    My point is its to early to judge Tucker, and the past does not predict the future. The pre-season is not the regular season. I do not know if Tucker will be good or bad this year, I will worry about that after week 3 or 4. Until then I hope to see improvement from week to week.
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2014
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  10. Bearsinhouston

    Bearsinhouston Position Coach

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    I would have to disagree and say that in fact the past has always been the best predictor of the future. It has been so for business, financials, politics, whatever. it is far from perfect, but while imperfect, it has proven to be the best.
  11. dabears70

    dabears70 Veteran

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    I agree with your way of thinking here but i also understand that when you put this many new players together that it's going to take time for these guys to gel and become a team. I'm not talking just the little time they play together in preseason either because it's going to take some regular season games of playing together for them to really understand each others game and how they play. I'm just hoping it doesn't take too many games. But this team will never get to the level of Seattle. Maybe one more draft and offseason of free agency focused on the defense and they can get to the level of Seattle.
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  12. Bearsinhouston

    Bearsinhouston Position Coach

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    For me, it's a little bit of a paradox, because in terms of the level of player talent, we are closer to Seattle than we are with the play on the field. If we continue to raise the level of player talent but also continue not to see the hoped for benefits, we will never achieve that level of play.
  13. JustAnotherBearsFan99

    JustAnotherBearsFan99 Coordinator SuperFan DBS Writer

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    I think we'll know a little bit more after Friday's game. Not because we'll see the team where we ultimately hope they'll be. But it will be a milestone where we can see where we are at now. We will see a lot of playing time with our starters going head-to-head against their starters. And while the ending score isn't a big deal, I believe it is great opportunity to see where our players are at, right now. That is important. There will be more milestones along the way on this season's journey. But this initial one is still important. Instead of watching these guys go at it in training camp, or in the very limited time against starters for the Eagles and Jags. This is going to be about 3/4 of a game against the world champions. I don't expect us to overpower them. But I also don't expect us to look lost out there against them either. Remember, this is preseason for the Seahawks too. And they too have had roster changes.
  14. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    That's not always true though. If this was always the case then one of businesses favorite terms would not be "outside the box thinking". The robber barons of the turn of the century weren't great b/c they stuck w/convention and many had failed more then a few times.

    As for pro sports and coaches in particular your theory misses the point that people are able to grow and learn from their mistakes. Unlike players they aren't limited by their physical ability; although their play calls are. Martz didn't becomes football stupid since his run in St.Louis, he just refused to grow and adapt. Bellecheck was the same guy in Cleveland that he was in NE, he just had better talent and got away w/spygate. Carroll was a total failure in the pro's, but he was able to go back to college grow and learn and now has been successful as a pro HC. Now at some point the ship will sail and there is just nothing that can be done(Ron Turner, Martz etc), but Tucker isn't there yet.

    There is nothing in Tuckers past to indicate that he's incapable of growing or w/better talent that his defensive theories won't hold up. Now they might not hold up, and the Bears might need to look elsewhere for a DC next year; but that won't be Paul P, he's here as a teacher not as a DC. I don't need an 80 year old DC who's had limited to no success in the pro's, at this point his NFL coordinating days are over.


    We are still missing their level of S play. We might match them at the DL and CB's, might even have a slight advantage at LB'r, but their S's are WAY better then the Bears at this point.
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  15. JustAnotherBearsFan99

    JustAnotherBearsFan99 Coordinator SuperFan DBS Writer

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    I've always believed this is what separates the good coaches from the lessor ones. The better coaches do learn and evolve. Others like Lovie Smith keep making the same mistakes over and over again. They will pound that square peg into a round hole until it splinters and breaks.
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  16. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    I was going to use Lovie but decide to take a break from beating that dead horse :)

    Speaking of ol Lovie Dovie, his team gave ups 260 passing yards to something called Moore Tannehill. Luckily McCown actually went a game w/out a turnover so there's a bonus.
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  17. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    While we're at it, Philly and NE's Def's suck also, both gave up mutliple 10+ yard runs and NE actually gave up 300 yards passing, sounds like their DC needs to be fired. Apparently the Balt DC needs to be fired also b/c their D gave up almost 300 yards passing, mostly from Glennon and 3 TD's, as well as well as 130+ rushing yards, 3 dallas rb's ran for longs of 15-27 yards. As long as we're firing DC's b/c of their PS performance lets go ahead and fire that guy in Pitt, 4 different Bills RB ran for longs of 10-17 yards. Hey all that Det Def talent gave up 300 passing yards and another 100 rushing to the raiders Raiders fire that Dc also.

    Btw, my boy Zach Mettenberger LIT UP NO's for 220+ yards and 2 td's. I really wanted the Bears to grab him in the 5th or 6th, Titans look like they got a steal there.
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  18. Bearsinhouston

    Bearsinhouston Position Coach

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    Think we are talking about different aspects of business. Thinking outside the box is solving problems in thought processes or combinations that are different to the application at hand. It is very prized because managers tend to "groupthink" and go down the same path and never come up with creative solutions because they are all looking for solutions using the same criteria and metrics.

    In saying that looking towards the past is the best predictor of the future, that has more to to with trying to predict an outcome based on previous trends and outcomes. I maintain that has been and continues to be the best indicator of the future probabilities. That is not to say that a creative, outside the box solution would not change the outcome, it is to say that taking the whole body of possibilities, looking at the past will be the best indicator of what will happen or the highest probability if some sort of different action (outside the box thinking) is not taken.

    Most solutions are not creative, outside the box solutions. Unfortunately most people will continue to repeat previous mistakes. And you have to consider that even with outside the box solutions, it may not be possible to change the outcome. For instance, when interest rates go up, inflation will probably happen. People have tried to come up with many theiries and creative ways to mitigate that. Most of the time, what has happened before will happen again. Inflation will still happen.

    So while it is a broad brush answer, in general I still believe that the past predicts the future. strictly by the odds. more often than not.

    In short though.... As for you first sentence "That's not always true though." I absolutely, 100% agree. But I was never talking in context of every time. Just the most probable.
  19. Bearsinhouston

    Bearsinhouston Position Coach

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    I didn't see the game and have interest in seeing it. Just wondering... how much pressure was put on McCown? I actually consider him to be a pretty good game manager in the right setting. I still think he will crash and burn over there though.
  20. JustAnotherBearsFan99

    JustAnotherBearsFan99 Coordinator SuperFan DBS Writer

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    One positive I can see in this, no matter how the defense performs this year, is that Emery is quick to try and fix what is broken on a team. After this season is finished, if Emery believes Tucker is the guy who can build a defense that can help us win a super bowl then he'll remain here. OTOH, if Emery feels a change in coaching is needed, then he will move decisively to make the necessary change. Just like he canned Lovie when he no longer had faith in him to lead us to a championship. I do trust Emery on this.

    Some have mentioned that Tucker could end up being a head coach. If he has success here in Chicago I believe that this could very well happen. If he fails here in Chicago though, that won't happen anytime soon. Actually, between our two coordinators, I think Kromer will probably be a head coach first.
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