What if Lovie had hired Trestman in 2004?

Discussion in 'Chicago Bears' started by Henry Burris, Oct 9, 2013.

  1. Aenir

    Aenir Pro-Bowler

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    I honestly think if Trestman is here in 04, Rex's 04-05 Injuries don't happen, Different blocking schemes, different plays, Rex never busts a ligament diving for that TD, maybe he passes it corner endzone. Maybe the OL picks up that Rams blitzer before he shish-ka-bob's rex's leg. And IF rex is never hurt, he doesn't become mental midget and get scared when pressure comes. I remember in 03 and pre injury 04, He was a different quarterback than what we saw later. Not scared, could move in the pocket or out, with the good arm.
  2. Henry Burris

    Henry Burris Head Coach

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    Yeah, those WERE freak injuries. Honestly, the only thing that could've saved Rex would be a smarter offensive coordinator (which Trestman absolutely would have been), and his gunslinger mentality curbed (You can see Trestman's MOSTLY got Jay out of it, but there's still those passes). I really don't think Rex would've done it, but if would have become the QB we were hoping, hell, we coulda had 2 Super Bowls with that roster. Imagine a good offense with Hester in his prime, either returning kicks, or having the punter kick it out of bounds.
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  3. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    He also sucked in Arizona which is why they let him walk. He didn't start having those "great" TJ seasons until he was w/Chicago and the Jets. He didn't average over 4ypc until he left Az, which is my point he didn't play well until he was behind Stud OL's, thanks for proving my point.

    It's easy for a starting RB w/a good OL to have 1000k seasons, that's not a huge accomplishment anymore, it's like 63ypg and if you're a RB that gets more then 15 touches a game and can average 4ypc(w/a good OL you should) then you're going to have 1K yards.

    I'm not a fan of Benson, I just understood that the JA took the best available player at #4 b/c he had not choice to draft at #4, no one wanted that pick. I understand that Benson did himself no favors, by holding out, but I also understand that TJ was a petty bitch that divided the locker room b/c he was scared of losing his job, and then forced his way out of Chi-Town to leave the team to deal w/his divisive attitude.

    Neither were great RB's, both were easily replaced by dozens of RB's in the league. They are in the "dime a dozen" of rb's crowd and easily replaced. Forte is 10x's the back they were, combined. If either of those two schlubs had ever had to run behind the OL's Forte did they'd be crushed and would have fumbled themselves out of the league long before they actually retired.


    As for Rex, I think his biggest problem was he wasn't tall enough to see over the OL, and in FL he was never asked to pre read a D so he couldn't; his instinct from his college days was if he couldn't see a guy open and chuck it to let the WR make a play on the ball; and that just doesn't work in the NFL.
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  4. JustAnotherBearsFan99

    JustAnotherBearsFan99 Coordinator SuperFan DBS Writer

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    We can agree to disagree on that one Ric. I'll admit though, that I am very biased when it comes to Cedric Benson. He is my #1 most disliked Bear from over the past 50 or so years. And, FWIW, I always like TJ a lot. I thought he always gave 100% to the team, and was a valuable weapon on offense.

    When we finally let Cedric walk, and got NOTHING in return for a 4th overall pick of the draft. It made me crazy. Still does, to be honest with you.

    To put that into perspective, our last two #4 overall draft picks (prior to the Benson pick) are both in the Hall of Fame now - Walter Payton was a #4, and Dan Hampton was picked at #4.

    Cedric? He's not even in the NFL now.

    Don't get me going. It's cool though. We can disagree 1000% with each other on this one. TJ was one of my favorite "Blue Collar" lunchbox guys on the Chicago Bears. We NEVER should have blown that #4 draft pick on Cedric Benson.

    Here are just some of the people who were available to pick at #4. Many of these guys are still playing. The bottom-line is that there were high quality players to be had with the #4. We got crap for the pick. Absolute crap.

    DeMarcus Ware
    Logan Mankins
    Aaron Rodgers
    Roddy White
    Frank Gore
    Vincent Jackson
    Trent Cole
    Michael Roos
    Derrick O. Johnson
    Jay Ratliff
    Justin Tuck
    Jammal Brown
    Lofa Tatupu
    Kerry Rhodes
    Chris Myers
    Mike Patterson
    Todd Herremans
    Khalif Barnes
    Jonathan Babineaux
    Darren Sproles
    Carlos Rogers
    David Stewart
    Antrel Rolle
    Barrett Ruud
    Shawne Merriman
    Michael Boley
    LeRoy Hill
    Kirk Morrison
    Heath Miller
    Chris Spencer
    Richie Incognito
    Nick Kaczur
    Brandon Jacobs
    Chris L. Canty
    Ryan Fitzpatrick
    David Baas
    Kevin Burnett
    Corey Webster
  5. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    Again I'm not a fan of Benson, he did himself no favors at all, and I'm glad the NFL has created a rookie scale to prevent this from becoming an issue in the future. I thought both backs in the same backfield owuld have benefitted greatly from one another though, and I thought both were good backs. I have no issue w/TJ other then the over love he gets from Bears fans as they ignore him being part of the problem. You don't have to like it, but it was stated fact that TJ split that locker room, and it was fully disclosed on multiple radio shows in Chicago at the time.

    all revisionist history JABF, none were rated higher that year by ANY club then Benson was! Wanna go back 10 years later over every draft and pick winners and losers based on who teams could have had?!?!?! Every GM will look bad, but they go w/who is the highest rated guy on their board at THAT time, and while everyone knew the top of that draft was weak, those guys were still rated higher then anyone else.
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  6. Henry Burris

    Henry Burris Head Coach

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    Yeah, nobody on that list was going to get drafted higher than the 3 runningbacks picked that year. Also, ric and I are NOT criticizing TJ from the perspective of a Benson fan. TJ WAS a prima donna, and as evidenced by his time in Cincinnati, Benson had the talent, and everything points to that locker room as being the reason why he didn't realize his potential. As Trestman has shown, he wouldn't tolerate the kind of crap Lovie let his players get away with.
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  7. JustAnotherBearsFan99

    JustAnotherBearsFan99 Coordinator SuperFan DBS Writer

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    Ric & Henry. All good points. ^^^^^^
  8. Henry Burris

    Henry Burris Head Coach

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    Honestly, I think Angelo would've gone defense with a pick, if he got to move back, and DeMarcus Ware would've been the pick, is my guess, just because Ogunleye didn't match the hype his first season, and since he drafted Mark Anderson as a pass rusher. Or he easily could've gone with another safety, and there were a few there, but it's a damn shame no team wanted to trade up.
  9. VJ18

    VJ18 Veteran

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    REgardless of who our OC was they would had problems due to the personal and the picks made by lovie and angelo
  10. ticat

    ticat Veteran

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    To early, I think this is one of those ''everything happens for a reason'' moment. He needed to go to the CFL to become the coach he is today.
  11. weneedmorelinemen

    weneedmorelinemen Veteran

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    What? Jones was injured in his time in Arizona, and one of those injuries was something really stupid to his hand. This doesn't prove your point at all, unless your point was that injured players with off the field issues on bad teams don't perform that great.

    Jones had a horrible line in 2004, one of the worst I've ever seen, and he was productive. Now this goes entirely against your point. He was productive in 2005 and 2006, and his "dancing" at the line of scrimmage that so many meatball fans complained about is what got him his yards those years. Then he leaves, and Benson is the starting back in 2007. Magically, that "stud" offensive line that you were bragging about TJ running behind all of the sudden became ancient overnight? Benson played poorly right from the start in 2007, and it wasn't just the line getting old. He was not prepared to play that year.

    Did you look at the yards Jones had behind the Jets offensive line? He had a 1100 season on a 4-12 team in 2007, then a 1300 yard rushing season followed by a 1400 yard rushing season in 2008 and 2009 while splitting carries with Shonn Greene in 2009. That's not easy in this day and age of the NFL. And Shonn Greene considers TJ to be a "father figure" to him. Dude, it was Benson that was the problem here with the Bears.

    The best available player at the #4 pick was Aaron Rodgers. He had plenty of choices. You aren't locked into a pick because the consensus of draft guides say so and so is supposed to be really good. He had scouts and was supposed to be a judge of NFL talent. The holdout didn't hurt Benson. The players from the interviews I remember supported him. It wasn't until he showed up that problems started.

    When you say Benson divided the locker room, how divided do you think it was? Because it did not seem to me that anyone really cared for Benson. I don't think it's fair to blame Jones for problems Benson created when he got here. Benson is the one that never felt quite at home because he's a weird aloof dickhead that felt it necessary to continually insult the veterans on the team. That the team preferred Thomas Jones because he played hard and was a team leader should not be a knock on Jones. Benson's personality is what got him disliked.

    Forte is just as replaceable. Any RB not wearing a #28 in Minnesota is replaceable.

    You must not remember how bad that 2004 line was. That was the year I changed my screen name on the CBMB to "weneedmorelinemen". Jones was the only bright spot on that team. We didn't have a QB or a line, and he was productive. We could have easily rode Thomas Jones for 1000+ yard seasons and never had to spend a draft pick to get Forte.

    I like Forte, and he's been very versatile and productive, so I don't want to give the wrong impression. But Forte has got to rush for 5,000 more yard to have a better career than TJ had. That's five good 1000 yard season or four 1200 yard seasons. He can do it, but he could come up short too.

  12. Henry Burris

    Henry Burris Head Coach

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    That was a horrible passing line. Kreutz was not allowed to call different blocking schemes. Jones had his best years behind a good offensive line in Chicago and an even better one in New York (don't even argue that point, I'm a fan of both teams, and while Chad Pennington was hurt in 2007, that offensive line didn't get bad over night, and Jonathon Vilma suffered his nasty leg injury that year, which double ***** NY, since they lost both their best offensive player and their best defensive player).

    No dude, you're absolutely wrong on the offensive line in 2007: Reuben Brown was cut before that season, Fred Miller was booed often in his final season in 2007, and John Tait retired after 2008, at which point, it was obvious offensive line was a big need. If you'll recall, there was a lot of controversy over Angelo saying "we need a QB", when Kyle Orton was the least of our worries. I'm not even debating THIS part of it with you. Look it up for yourself, if you don't believe me.

    Revisionist history. No one knew Aaron Rodgers was going to be as good as he was, and that's why he fell to the end of the first round.

    Again, your memory isn't serving you well here. Both Alex Smith and Aaron Rodgers were viewed as lukewarm prospects, and Ronnie Brown, Cadillac Williams and Cedric Benson were viewed as the best/least chance of failing prospects. If you don't believe that he tried to trade back, obviously you don't remember that draft.

    Stop right there. The only thing Benson did was to hold out for more money. God knows that's never happened in the NFL before....You're also seeming to miss the point that TJ FORCED HIS WAY OUT. Angelo also didn't want to trade him and our 2nd just to get a higher 2nd round pick in the draft. TJ was sulking because Benson got more money.

    I'm saying you made the last part of that sentence up. I've never heard a source saying he was disrespectful. If anything, it was the other way around. There is a LOT of circumstantial evidence that points to several veterans of the Bears locker room being complete dicks to people, but there is none that has said Benson "disrespected" his teammates.


    They preferred Thomas Jones because there was a "buddy buddy" system in Lovie's locker room, and, like many players, Benson found his way into Lovie's doghouse. No one ever tried to acclimate him to the team, instead they just caused drama. If you were as disliked at your work place, as he was at his, do you think you'd be doing a great job? Amazing how once he left Chicago, he suddenly knew how to play football again....


    EDIT: I am NOT a Benson fan, just because I know that's what someone's response to this will be. I was disappointed in him with his first DUI, and with the 2nd, I was ready to see him gone, too. I think he would've been decent behind Matt Forte, but it was time to move on.
  13. riczaj01

    riczaj01 DaBears Ditka DBS Writer

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    100K internet points to Henry, I have nothing to add. Everything he said is dead on.


    enough of this silly bs anyways, NYG's tonight bitches! Bear DOWN!
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  14. weneedmorelinemen

    weneedmorelinemen Veteran

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    So when I said to Ric about the Jets in this thread:

    "The Jets had a good line, and TJ rewarded them with multiple 1000 yard seasons and was a starter in the Pro Bowl for the AFC one of those years."

    You think I'm going to argue the point of the Jets having a good line? You even responded to that quote, so I'd hope you read that comment.

    I guess I can try to argue that point. Since you are a fan of both teams, how was the Jets O-line in 2007? I'd heard it took D'Brick three years to learn his job and play at a high level. He was drafted in 2006, and TJ rushed for 1100 yards in 2007 before Faneca was brought in. But I don't know since I don't watch the team. I did have TJ on my fantasy football team those years is pretty much all the attention I paid to the Jets.

    You have a few wrong points in your above thought.

    Ruben Brown started 8 games in 2007. Benson made it to 12, We deliberately signed Brown to a one year deal that year. He'd made the Pro Bowl in 2006. I even remember the interview on the radio where he said at his age you sign any piece of paper given to you by an NFL team and do not negotiate.

    2nd, Fred Miller was on the team as a backup in 2008, so 2007 was not his final season as a Bear. What, he was booed because of his false starts killing drives? And that affected his run blocking how? The RB core rushed for like 2000 yards in 2006 with this same five guys we had out there in 2007.

    John Tait retired in 2009 after playing all 16 games in 2008 and 16 games in 2007. I'm not arguing that offensive line was a need after 2008. Hell, it was a need before then. I remember holding a grudge against JA that we took Daniel Manning instead of Tony Ugoh. Damn, I was a member of the LT Mafia on the CBMB in 2008. Brandon Albert 4 Lyfe!

    What I'm saying is the offensive line was old in 2006, not just 2007 where it "magically" fell off after TJ left. It just looked better when the RB behind the line actually knew the blocking schemes and could be left in on 3rd downs. If Benson was in in 2007, the opponent was damn sure it was a run. It didn't help that he was elusive as a bread truck and occasionally fell down to tackle himself. What I'm saying that is the line was not as good as you say it was in 2006 when it really was just smoke and mirrors. It was the same guys on the line for 8 games in 2007 as it was in 2006. The only difference was our starting RB was not prepared to be a starting RB, and we telegraphed our run plays by Benson's one dimension style of running.

    My memory is fine. I said in a different thread that I wanted OL or WR that draft. Hell, I wanted Braylon Edwards or BMW, which shows what I know. I felt we had a 1st round RB already, and a 1st round QB in Rex. And I would not have thought to take Rodgers.

    Ric was saying that there was no one worth taking. I was merely responding to the fact that, yes, there was someone. His name was Aaron Rodgers. It's not my fault that all the scouts in the NFL in 2005 had their heads up their butts.

    Jones was traded to make way for Benson's high draft status and cost. He made a deal with Angelo to get traded because he could not compete with one aspect of Benson: His guaranteed dollars. Benson could not beat him on the field so Angelo had to move the tradeable asset.

    Benson in his first interview after signing his holdout deal was to say he was going to be the starting running back by week 2. Jones took offense to that. Later, when Jones was playing hard and keeping the starting role, the media asked Benson why wasn't he starting. He told them Jones was playing well because of the motivation Benson mere presence was giving him to play well. Again, Jones took offense to that when the media asked him about that and he told them "I provide my own motivation,". Or when he disrespected Lovie Smith when he told the media that, "the NFL is not like high school or college, but the best players don't always get on the field." as a shot for why Benson was not starting over Jones. That's not disrespectful in your eyes?

    I thought this was professional football, not everybody has to like each other football. So everyone is supposed to like everyone on a football team? Because you aren't popular at your workplace, they are paying you to do a job. That's what being a professional means. Do your job. Oh, no one liked Benson so he couldn't learn the blocking scheme?

    Are you saying that Lovie himself was swayed by Thomas Jones and the "buddy buddy" system to put Benson in the doghouse? Jones held out of OTA's in 2006 and Benson was placed above him on the depth chart. If anyone should have been in the doghouse, it was Jones. This is becoming a conspiracy. The team preferred Jones because he took his job seriously and played hard. Benson didn't, and it showed in 2007 as the lead back. Lovie and JA wanted nothing more than to justify Benson's cost and high draft status. But I guess it's easier to think in terms that Jones turned the team against Benson. But really, if Benson played well, do you think the Bears locker room would have let an inferior player in Jones be the starting RB?

    You honestly think Benson would have accepted playing as Forte's backup in 2008?

    And of course you aren't a Benson fan. No one IS an Benson fan, not anymore. I wasn't disappointed with Benson on his first DUI because I was already sick of his 60 yards a game rushing in 2007. No, that's not true. I was sick of him when he ran scared in the Superbowl when we needed a strong rushing game and got stuffed behind the line of scrimmage and tweaked his knee. No, actually, I was sick of him after the coaches had to force him to play the last game of his rookie season after he'd been medically cleared to play weeks earlier.

    Look, I can tell that there you and Ric didn't like Jones when he was here. I don't see how anyone can dislike 3500 yard of production for a mere 7.75 million dollars total over the three years he was here. I can see you blame Jones for the mess Benson made for himself, and nothing I say will convince you otherwise. Maybe you can direct your blame towards other teammates, like Urlacher and Ricky Manning Jr, who apparently led the charge against Benson even after Jones was off the team.
  15. ChiCityBears

    ChiCityBears Veteran

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    What if we signed Drew Brees in 2006?
  16. The Benjamin

    The Benjamin George Halas Staff Member

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    what if the Bears never made a bad draft pic??

    We can play revisionist history all we want. But we never know how things would have turned out.

    My favorite is "what if we drafted Aaron Rodgers instead of Benson" as if the clowns we had could actually have developed him into what he was now with the lack of talent the Bears would have had around him on offense.
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  17. 4th and 26

    4th and 26 George Halas Staff Member

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    Trestman would have been a scapegoat for lovies failures a couple of years ago.
  18. Bearsinhouston

    Bearsinhouston Position Coach

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    I honestly do not think that Rogers would be the QB he is today if he would have been drafted by the Bears in that time frame. We had no ability to develop a QB.
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  19. weneedmorelinemen

    weneedmorelinemen Veteran

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    Of course he wouldn't. But he'd have been better than Rexy, and he would not be a Packer. The Packers would have ended up with Jason Campbell if they did take a QB in the first round, or if they skipped and draft a 1st rounder the next year it could have been Matt Leinart or Jay Cutler. There is a good chance they would be still grasping at QBs.
  20. The Benjamin

    The Benjamin George Halas Staff Member

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    And with proper teaching by the coaches, and a HOF QB to mentor him, Campbell might have been one hell of a QB.

    He has the talent, but has never been able to put it all together. Is that his fault, or lack of quality teaching?

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